disciple-making as strategic activity
Those who have been following the series exploring The Forgotten Ways, will be aware that in terms of the model of Apostolic Genius I suggest in the book, all six elements of mDNA (Jesus is Lord, Disciple-Making, Missional-Incarnational Impulse, Apostolic Environment, Organic Systems, and Communitas) must be present for authentic apostolic movements to catalyze and develop. All the elements of mDNA belong together, and they must all be present in significant ways for Apostolic Genius to manifest, but my own experience and observation indicates that perhaps other than the Christology piece, this element, namely that of discipleship and disciple-making, is perhaps the next most critical element in the mDNA mix. This is so because it is the essential task of discipleship to embody and transmit the message of Jesus the Founder, and therefore to fail here is to fail in the most basic task of the church. In other words, this is the strategic element of mDNA; failure here means failure full stop—at least in terms of dynamic missional movements.
C.S.Lewis quite rightly understood that the purpose of the church was to draw people to Christ and make them like Christ. He said that the church exists for no other purpose. “If the Church is not doing this, then all the cathedrals, clergy, missions, sermons, even the Bible, are a waste of time.” (W. Vaus, Mere Theology, A Guide to the Thought of C.S.Lewis)
Comments
56 Responses to “disciple-making as strategic activity”
Leave a Reply
I totally agree with you Alan. We are specifically called, both individually and collectively to create disciples. Not converts, not believers, not ‘church members’, but disciples.
Where I am still struggling is in the area of describing, even to myself, that place where the basics are completed and I am ready to move on to the next person in my continuing process. What constitutes a mature believer? If we cannot define this, at least in terms of how a person lives when they are approaching maturity, then there is always a temptation to not approach an effort that has no end, no place of at least comfort in a completed job.
In America, everybody wants to measure something. How long does this take, how quick can we do that, etc…
I know that time does not enter into this equation, except that it takes time to move towards God. Do we measure outcomes? Even in my own life, I read 2 Corinthians 13:5
and could use a little confidence that I am where I need to be in the process. The Message puts it this way…
“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?”
I am striving to ‘pass’ this test, and to help others along this path. How do we mix the part of being on the path and when we let ourselves and other help with the process and not just be in the process?
Blessings!
Alan,
I also totally agree with you that:
“it is the essential task of discipleship to embody and transmit the message of Jesus the Founder, and therefore to fail here is to fail in the most basic task of the church.”
I am new to the idea of one on one disciple making. I am still in a mainline evangelical church (PCUSA). Maybe what I hope to see happen can only be done through one on one discipling, but here are my thoughts anyway.
It is not enough just to confess the right things - discipleship doctrine. It is not enough just to work on the right things - discipleship programs. It is not enough to accomplish the right things on rare occasions, because the harvest is abundant, so we need an abundance of disciples to do the work. So for me, the question is not a matter of spiritual maturity because there are too few who understand themselves to be spiritually mature. How many people can claim to be spiritually mature? Not me. The more helpful question for me concerns the idea of discipleship competence (spiritual maturity and what I call discipleship competence are pretty much the same thing, but I find the idea of discipleship competence to be easier to apply to disciple-work). I believe that every believer can be made by God to be “competent enough” to “embody and transmit the message of Jesus” in whatever particular discipleship work they are called to do. Even brand new believers have done this in very powerful and convincing ways.
Yes, the inability of disciples to “embody and transmit the message of Jesus,” is a problem of “spiritual maturity,” but not in the sense that most people think of it. I don’t think that the problem has to do with achieving a high, able to do anything and everything level of spiritual maturity before one can properly “embody and transmit the message of Jesus.” I believe that discipleship competence consists in hearing God and saying yes to God and no to the Evil One. For this discussion in particular, discipleship competence consists in being able to able to respond when commanded, “Yes God, I will go into the world in the particular manner you have indicated to embody and transmit the message of Jesus. I trust that you have made me competent to begin doing this task you are calling me to do. I trust that along the way you will make me competent to complete the task you are calling me to do.”
Should we engage in Bible study and prayer? Absolutely! However, just remember that no amount of Bible study, prayer, earnest seeking, and good mentoring will amount to anything if we do not say yes to God and no to the Evil One.
Alan, If Discipleship is the strategic key, then what constitutes a disciple? When did the first disciples become disciples: when Jesus called them to follow him?; or when they had listened to enough teaching and done some ministry?; when they had the Acts 1
.8 experience?; when they had been witnesses to Jerusalem, etc.?; when church historians named them disciples?
The Bible doesn’t lay out a baseball diamond plan, or five-steps, or 7 points of becoming a disciple so why do churches think that’s how it occurs?
Do we know when we are a disciple? If so, how?
How do you know if someone is “being discipled” or “becoming a disciple?”
I really want to know, if anyone will engage these questions, b/c I believe that discipleship is Vitally important.
Thanks
Alan,
This is exactly what we would describe in aerospace as a “single-point failure.” And I absolutely agree.
Richard (and wasabi and John, too),
I think the measurement must be in the appearance of a fourth-generation disciple. That means that I must disciple one who disciples one who disciples one–with the essential truth remaining consistent, regardless of the cultural context, in that fourth generation disciple.
This is also why the “simplex” is so vital. If what we are teaching is too complex for it to be passed on consistently, then we get what we’ve got in church today. Lots of “believers” and not many “disciples” — the consumers rather than the producers.
I am designing CovenantClusters to include a component from Neil Cole’s “Cultivating a Life for God” — which is a wonderfully simplex book that is readily adaptable. Foundational to everything, from my perspective, is that we understand the primary context of covenant and covenant-keeping to the disciple-making process. It provided foundation, inspiration, strength, focus, measurement…10 years into the experiment, I’m more and more convinced that this is the missing piece.
Back to Lewis–always be holding on to one ahead of you and always be holding on to one behind you.
So, there’s my 2 cents….
Hi Peggy,
I hate to be a stick in the mud, okay my prophetic leanings don’t make me feel too bad, but in reading the description of Neil’s book on Amazon, this sounds like another method of doing discipleship, not a description of what needs to go into and what needs to come out of a successful completion of the process. That is what I was seeking some input on…
Accountability and …
I think the question about what is discipleship exactly is a great one. Very rarely do we find churches that would actually argue against discipleship, but they do give different answers and many of those just don’t seem to be quite right.
The Evangelical tradition I’m a part of would consider discipleship to be training someone enough for them to be effective evangelists. Evangelism was the goal, and really a person didn’t need to know much more than this. Hence the importance of apologetics and methods and a Bible with the Roman Road clearly tabbed. Asking more about spirituality is considered suspect, something liberals do.
The Catholic church has catechism in which it seems the primary goal of discipleship for laypeople is learning how to do the liturgy right along with the basics of what the liturgy means. Access to Christ is through the liturgy so someone who follows Christ better know what’s happening.
My perception from the Gospels and the rest of the NT is that true discipleship is about becoming really Christ like. A disciple learns what it means to love their enemies. A disciple learns what it means to let go of everything for the sake of the Kingdom. A disciple loves God and others. A disciple basically is someone who increasingly resonates Christ to the world in all sorts of ways. They act as Jesus would have them act in any given situation.
What this means practically is that discipleship is vital because it makes the rest of the points instinctive. The more mature of a disciple the more natural all the other points will be. What is far too common is that goals such as Alan has raised become systematic practices, ordered and listed and managed and controlled. Non-disciples don’t act on instinct they act according to the laws and rules.
To be discipled is to become increasingly Jesused. Discipleship reveals, teaches, and provokes a person to take hold of what the Spirit is doing in their life to make this happen.
Richard,
I think you have to have more to go on than what the Amazon blurb says…I went and looked at it before I came to respond here. I believe you would be hard-pressed to find another disciple-making process that is as comprehensive and biblical as the “Life Transformation Groups” that this book describes.
In his foreword Bob Logan says some important things: “What you find here in not simply theory–the principles have been proven effective in ministry situtations. I like the Life Transformation Group process because it is:
1. Focused on the task of making and multiplying disciples….
2. Balanced on being, knowing, and doing. Believers who allow the Word of God to permeate and saturate their lives grow in their knowledge of God and biblical understanding…
3. Flexible and adaptable. …rooted in basic biblical principles, it can be applied very easily within any cultural context.
4. Reproducible. …even new believers can effectively make and multiply disciples.
No matter where you labor in the harvest and the church, you will find practical guidance for establishing a reproducing process of making disciples….”
Perhaps you need to restate your context and expectations, because I’m not tracking with the distinction you are making between “another method of doing discipleship” and “a description of what needs to go into and what needs to come out of a successful completion of the process.”
The process described in Cole’s LTGs is exactly what needs to go into the process…and fourth generation disciple-making disciples is what needs to come out of the process for it to be called successful–IMO.
Excerpted from the back cover: the five benefits and biblical reasons for participating in a LTG are identified: community (Ecc. 4:9-12
), accountability (I Tim. 5:19
), confidentiality (Matt. 18:15-17
), flexibility (Matt. 18:20
) and reproducibility (II Tim. 2:2
)
I’d be happy to describe further, if that would help…but if I’m just not tracking with you, please give it another go at explaining.
Patrick,
You slid in there while I was typing, dude! I would be interested in your take on what I’m saying to Richard here….
I am very passionate about this component of the mDNA….
About the 4th generation disciple and the rest… My question is: How do we measure personal disciple-making? Is it possible? The last question was vague and rhetorical. The point I am moving to is this: In a community we disciple(communal effort), but I think ultimately it depends on our passion for making christlikeness appear first in ourselves and then in others. We can’t measure based on how many people we disciple, the demographical analysis, nor can we measure it by the specific program we use. Instead we must measure our passion and whether or not it translates into godly action. So ultimately there is no test of efficiency, rather we see on God’s level whether or not we are disciplers.
Isaiah,
I am not interested in efficiency, particularly, but effectiveness. And the LTGs Cole’s books describes are exactly about personal lives being transformed in an ultra-small group with two others–and Jesus Christ, who has promised to be in their midst. Those whose lives are truly and continually being transformed by the Holy Spirit in this kind of liminality/communitas are dynamite.
And I would go so far as to say that if each one of us would become disciples who truly and effectively disciple our own children and just one other–so that our children would be able to disciple their children and the other would be able to disciple their children and one other, the chain reaction would blow away even the scenario from “Pay It Forward.”
For those without children, one could add two others to the one other, for a total of three…
Anyone else game for this proposal??? I’m getting very excited to see the pieces falling into place….
A disciple is disciplined, discipled and disciples
If all disciples were disciplined, by the modelling and application of discipline, by those who disciple them, being disciplined in their own lives, then we wouldn’t need to have a discussion on what a disciple looks like because we’d be disciplined disciples - it would be a natural part of being a disciple of Jesus Christ.
If all disciples discipled, while they were being discipled, we wouldn’t need to have a discussion on what a disciple looks like because we’d be disciplined disciples - it would be a natural part of being a disciple of Jesus Christ.
The problems exist because we are not prepared to be disciplined, so we are incapable of being disciples, therefore we do not know what a disciple looks like…
A disciple of Jesus is someone who places themselves under His headship, who submits to His leadership, who is planted by Him and accepts His direction, who is becoming like Jesus, who thinks like Jesus, who behaves like Jesus, who acts like Jesus, who serves like Jesus, who does and says only what they hear the Father say and do, who is planted in a body and committed to a community, who surrenders their independence for the greater good of the body, who applies the gifts that they have in service of God’s kingdom first, who engages with the gifts of the Spirit and who demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit, who receives from God and gives generously to others, who loves the Lord their God with every part of their being, who loves people as they know they themselves are loved, who is salt and light in their community and who invests their love, life and experience into others on the journey…
Just a wee thought
A Celtic Son
Peggy, I am sorry that I was not clear. I was not in any way arguing that process was not important or that Neil’s process was not a good one. It is just that the question I am asking is not one of process. I am a process person. The question I am asking is one of target. As John Page put it: What does a disciple look like? Is there a description, a series of outcomes, what measurements can we use to see if we pass the test?
There are lots of books on process which is what Neil’s sounds like. That’s great! But, I am more interested in finding out the content or life model that his process is designed to achieve. In other words, what is the target?
Randy Frazee has a book out in which he outlines 30 outcomes that he sees as outcomes that an individual can measure. The encompass beliefs, practices, and values. This is good, but I get a lot of push back that it is too strong from many in the Christian community. So, if this is too strong, and I am not at all sure that it is, then what is the alternative?
That is the focus of my question, and it sounds like, John’s as well.
Blessings!
CS, your “wee thought” is exactly the point: are we ready to be disciplined disciples who disciple as we are being discipled. I say too many are not, which is back to the point of this post–this becoming and making of disciples is THE strategic activity…the proof in the pudding, as it were.
Let’s get on with making the Jesus pudding and feeding the world
Isaiah, I think I agree with you. The problem with the idea of numbers and analysis is that such things can change according to the context. Put a prophet in a really dysfunctional situation and he may get a few people to really become disciples. Put someone in the middle of a really comfortable, easy functioning suburb and he might get 10,000 people showing up on a Sunday. Who is the better discipler?
Jesus really didn’t have too many disciples for that matter. A good many thought he was too difficult to work with and that left a smaller number of others. Were all the real disciples able to fit into the upper room during Pentecost? Maybe.
Peggy, I haven’t read the book but I very much respect Bob Logan and Neil Cole. From your post it almost seems to me they are somewhere in the middle of being thoroughly disciplers and the older Evangelical approach. The last point especially seems to suggest that when they say “disciples” they mean converts. A real disciple is, to use NT language, someone able to increasingly eat meat. New Christians are still drinking milk. Sure they can offer the milk bottle to others, but they’re not going to be laying out the feast for the mature hungry in their midst.
I think too that the Logan/Cole approach basically excises the need for a teacher and prophet, whose functions as far as I can see are precisely in the area of discipleship.
My thought isn’t that discipleship won’t happen even in a collection of young believers but that it will reach a wall and people will often burn out thinking they’ve reached the end or they will have to go elsewhere for a more thorough diet.
I agree with Logan and Cole’s points but I’m not sure about that very last line, and I’m thinking their second point is much more important and complex than the hurrying that their last point suggests.
Richard,
We were in a posting flury here…and I would direct you to Celtic Son’s very find description of the target, which was being posted as you were composing!
I would also say that the concept of hesed (covenant keeping) is the target of disciple-making. The faithful keeping of the covenant terms and conditions can be see in this simple formula: In Christ + Like Christ = With Christ.
A disciple must first and foremost accept God’s invitation and join the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. Then a disciple must submit to the Holy Spirit’s continual task of transforming them into the very image of Jesus. This tasks of the Holy Spirit is what I believe CS was describing as “being disciplined” and it is an on-going reality that continued until the day when we leave this earth, either by death or at Christ’s return.
For “target” practice I have come to believe that hesed helps our focus. Practicing hesed means that we are looking out for the best interest of and are faithful to provide whatever aid our covenant partners need to remain faithful to the covenant.
God is our faithful partner and the presence of the Holy Spirit guarantees that we have what we need to remain faithful. When we obey Jesus’ commandments, we remain faithful. When we help a brother or sister obey Jesus’ commandments, we remain faithful. When we allow others to help us obey through being disciplined, we remain faithful.
What are the central commands of Christ: love God and love others. When we do anything that is not loving God, we sin. When we do anything that is not loving another, we sin. When we confess our sin, God forgives us, since the penalty has already been paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. This is a cycle of trying and falling and confession and restoration and getting up and trying over and over–all of us helping each other. This is not what I see most often…rather I see trying and falling and pretending that one did not fall and not seeing one who fell and thereby not offering a hand up and not seeing the hand that may be offered…where there is no confession or restoration or getting up and trying again. It breaks my heart….
This may seem fairly simplistic, but I would argue that it is, rather, simplex. We must do this hesed–this trying to keep covenant faithfully by loving God and others, all day every day in every situation—in order to faithfully keep covenant with God and each other in Christ. “It” is simple; the manifestations of the reality are many.
I have consistently found, over the past seven years of “aiming at this target” that if I can get people to understand the concept of hesed–and I mean really get it–then they are able to readily apply and translate it to whatever context they find themselves. It is a powerful concept and makes the need for the huge list of outcomes superfulous.
Wow…off my soapbox and into the kitchen to feed the starving crowd!
Love this conversations, friends!
Patrick,
I would say that Cole’s emphasis is absolutely not one of just making converts, but making disciples–the process of maturing converts that will differ in length with each individual.
Let me give you all the one non-negotiable Neil has that most people choke on: each LTG of three agrees that they will read an equivalent of 25-30 chapters of the Bible each week…and that they will not move on until all three of them have completed the reading assignment. Sometimes it is an extended passage, like the Sermon on the Mount, that is read through five times in the week. Sometimes it is an entire book, like I John, that is read through four times in a week. Sometimes it is a longer section…you get the drift.
Imagine more beievers-who-want-to-be-disciples actually spending that amount of time in the Word and actually listening to what God is saying–and then listening to what God is saying to those in their LTG!
And, it is not supposed to take the place of the teacher or prophet, but makes the disciples better prepared to receive the Word from the teacher or prophet. I consider all of this part of what I call proper soil preparation.
Remember the earlier thought from CS Lewis: we all need to be in a group of three: one above us to pull us up and one behind us that we can bring along. These are not supposed to be groups of all babies, here.
Does that make any more sense?
Yikes…the natives are restless, and I said I was leaving after the last comment
Blessings…
John, I will try and get to how we know what a disciple is in due time. But the short answer is that it is a qualitative test…namely that of Christlikeness. I am not sure whether this can be measured…if at all. But it can be experienced.
Hullo-o-o
What I’m hearing is a concern that applying “disciplines” programmatically can be problematic as we’re all shaped differently.
In 2 Cor 3
Paul writes;
“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed INTO HIS LIKENESS with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
So firstly there is a freedom in Christ and therefore a level of freedom in the process of discipleship.
I’d probably phrase things a little different to Peggy here… though I think we’re in agreement on root issues. I tend to see “hesed” as a discipline in the Old Testament - obeying the law which was put in charge to lead us to Christ - and see it as a fruit in the New Covenant; because Christ has brought us into His faithfulness, we are able to be faithful and the fruit of that is seen in the fact that we love to be obedient to God, so “hesed” is a natural outworking of that. We display “hesed” because we know how loved we are by God, and can’t help but want to respond to His great love.
Everyone needs to be a disciple of Jesus - rather than a disciple of the person who disciples them, or whoever wrote the programme. Those we disciple are not ours, but disciples of Jesus - all too often programmes are shaping people to be what WE want them to be, rather than to be who God created them to be - what is best for THEM?Disciplines are vital, but they must be shaped for the development of each disciple, to further equip them to allow Christ to be displayed through them. The discipleship journey ought to be one that we are on together, so the discipler is also becoming who they are in Christ.
The process involves accepting the Spirit’s unveiling in our lives - He has removed our filthy rags, we need to acknowledge that and stop putting them on again. In practice we need to be removing the cares of this world, casting our cares upon Him and allowing the Lord’s glory to be reflected in us. We participate with God in the process of becoming who God created us to be, by also walking in the works He created for us to do.
As we journey we become increasingly like the person we were always meant to be, it’s not so much that we put on Christian behaviours, but we come to a recognition that, to be who we were meant to be, we need to take off the rubbish that the world has poured upon our souls. We increasingly fall in love with God to such an extent that we love to be obedient, we love to do His will. We recognise that the faithfulness, the grace and truth, the ability all come from Him and we embrace His transforming power. And because His likeness involves the community of the Godhead, we journey in community. The aim for every one of us is to become who God says we already are… and to help one another on the journey.
The fruit of this is that we become more like Jesus Christ in thought, word, deed, character and behaviour - that’s what identifies a disciple.
Slainte
A Celtic Son
This discussion is somewhat frustrating for me. I understand and agree that we should be Christlike. I am not looking for a list of what we need to do necessarily, but neither am I excited to hear that it all happens by osmosis. And that is what a lot of this sounds like to me. Get around people who love Jesus and seek to be like them in community. Either that or maybe the language is not clear to me.
I think I will go back to lurking for awhile…
Richard, I understand your frustration, but to be honest I think you summed it up.
Isn’t that how Jesus discipled his disciples? The issue, I think, is that there is, like Peggy noted, not people on the same level but there are those who are advanced so that we can osmos (I know, that’s not likely a word) from those who are ahead of us.
Maybe though its not exactly osmosis as there isn’t just us hanging out with others, but us participating with the Holy Spirit with others, so they instruct us, we instruct them, and there’s a mutuality of learning going on.
Rather than a formal list of things to do to promote discipleship there should be a flexible tool chest of responses that a community can utilize. So that means there can be a list, but it’s not a list that has to be the same for everyone in every setting but instead is a list of many different approaches with the goal, not the method, being primary.
That seems to be how the ancient monastic communities went about their discipleship. I’m thinking particularly of John Cassian’s thoughts on this stuff.
There are times to reflect and times to act, if the reflection is frustrating, then my suggestion Richard is that it’s time for action.
So, personalise some questions…
What has helped you to grow to become more Christlike on your journey Richard?
What encounters have you had that have helped to reduce self centredness and put others first?
In what ways have you placed yourself under Christ’s Headship?
Who do you invite to disciple/ mentor/ coach you on a regular basis?
Who do you empower to hold you to account for your thoughts, words and deeds?
In what ways are you submitting to Christ’s leadership?
In what ways are you planted by Him and accepting His direction?
In what ways are you becoming like Jesus?
In what ways do you think, behave, act, serve like Jesus, that you didn’t before?
In what ways do you say and do what you hear the Father say and do?
Who are the people He has planted you with?
Hopw are you equipping/ investing/ encouraging/ empowering them?
How are you demonstrating committment to a community?
What practical examples can you give of how you are surrendering your independence for the greater good of the body?
How are you applying your gifts in service of God’s kingdom first?
Are you engaging with the gifts of the Spirit and demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit - how is that perceived by others?
What have you received from God and how have you given generously to others?
How are you demonstrating your love of the Lord your God with every part of your being?
In what practical ways are you showing that you love people, as your know you are loved by God?
In what ways are you being salt and light in your community?
How are you investing your love, life and experience into others on the journey?
Who have you chosen to deliberately disciple to help them become more like Jesus?
etc, etc, etc
These are just initial thoughts for a framework for growth, self-discipline, engagement etc… It’s not a “list” for comparison to others, it’s a chart of goals to measure myself as I am now, against myself as God intends me and is calling me to be…
At the end of the day it’s about You and God…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Richard,
This is why the whole perichoretic/choral discussion is so helpful to those of us who have struggled to understand it. It is about learning to dance with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and the Church.
Or, in ways you can relate better to, it is about learning to sing. You have to learn lots of things on the way to becoming a good singer, but when it comes to choral singing, you have to get in the midst of a bunch of other singers in your section and listen to each other so that you can sing with one voice. Is that osmosis? I don’t think so, but it is a very subtle and subjective process…and the only way to know that you are successful is that when the choir sings, it is lovely and you can’t pick out one voice from among the section–they are beautifully submitted to each other and to the director and to the writer of the music–so that the best interest of each singer/the choir/director/composer is served.
This is, by the way, a fine description of the love/grace/mercy attitudes paired with submit/serve/lead actions we find in the New Testament that describes the Hebrew term hesed that has no comprehensive translation into either Greek or English, for that matter.
God is the great composer of an amazing work, Christ is a choral master and principal singer, we are the choir/singers and the Holy Spirit is both the giver of the vocal gifts and the resonance we feel in our bodies that helps us know when something is right…and when something is not quite right.
When it comes down to it, singing is taking the theory and opening up your mouth and letting out the sound….and it is the only way to improve.
Don’t give up…don’t give in to the frustration…keep processing and refining the questions. I know the place you stand in…many of us know that place, because we have been there. Sometimes we must be patient and learn a step at a time, when we want to cut to the chase. Shortcuts don’t work in vocal training and they don’t work in disciple-making, either. Alan will take the next step when we’re ready to move on. Patience is an especially difficult discipline….
We will, however, be here to help you sing with us and dance with us, too.
Be blessed, all–what a wonderful conversation!
And CS…love the list of questions–right in line with Neil’s LTGs
I’ve said it too many times, but I don’t care: you are all a treasure.
And John,
Jesus didn’t give us baseball diamonds or 5 or 7 or 12 steps, but he did talk about bearing fruit and being grafted in to the vine and remaining in him and growing and being pruned and bearing more fruit…and he talks about seeds being planted in good soil and growing and bringing forth a significant crop…and he talked about being born again, yet when we were born the first time, it was after about nine months of explosive but unseen growth, except for the increase seen in our mother’s profile and nowadays in an ultrasound picture!
These are all “organic” metaphors because the process of growth Jesus is looking for in his disciples is organic–natural, not contrived.
I’m too tired to think any more…gotta read to my boys (growing little disciples who want to follow Christ) and go to bed. I’ll catch up with the conversation in about 10 hours or so
I woke up this morning thinking of Wesley. Which really isn’t as odd as it sounds because I’ve spent a bit of time studying Wesley. Anyway it’s interesting to look at those movements, as Alan has done, which somehow reveal the apostolic genius.
Wesley’s Methodists were called that because of their methods of discipleship. A good many of contemporary models have this at their root, even as Methodism for the most part has moved away from Wesley’s model. It worked, it seems, because it tapped into what Peggy said about LTG groups, which in my mind amounts to a kind of intentional osmosis.
Here are the questions Wesley formed for use in his early “Holy clubs”:
1. Am I consciously or unconsciously creating the impression that I am better than I relly am? In other words, am I a hypocrite?
2. Am I honest in all my acts and words, or do I exaggerate?
3. Do I confidentially pass on to another what was told to me in confidence?
4. Can I be trusted?
5. Am I a slave to dress, friends, work, or habits?
6. Am I self-conscious, self-pitying, or self-justifying?
7. Did the Bible live in me today?
8. Do I give it time to speak to me everyday?
9. Am I enjoying prayer?
10. When did I last speak to someone else about my faith?
11. Do I pray about the money I spend?
12. Do I get to bed on time and get up on time?
13. Do I disobey God in anything?
14. Do I insist upon doing something about which my conscience is uneasy?
15. Am I defeated in any part of my life?
16. Am I jealous, impure, critical, irritable, touchy, or distrustful?
17. How do I spend my spare time?
18. Am I proud?
19. Do I thank God that I am not as other people, especially as the Pharisees who despised the publican?
20. Is there anyone whom I fear, dislike, disown, criticize, hold a resentment toward or disregard? If so, what am I doing about it?
21. Do I grumble or complain constantly?
22. Is Christ real to me?
Which are helpful questions to ask on a regular basis in the context of a discipling community. What’s also interesting is that Wesley formed these and put them into practice about a dozen years prior to his “conversion” at Aldersgate. It was after Aldersgate that his ministry took off and methodism ignited revivals across Britain and the US.
I know the early church had similar emphases on discipleship, which led into going overboard in some instances as the monastics show, even as a good many didn’t and are still effective guides, such as John Cassian.
The problem, though, with any formal method is that it is extremely easy to systematize and over time basically exclude the fluidity of the Holy Spirit.
So personally that’s more my question about discipleship for a local community. What’s the Holy Spirit doing in your/my life and what do I/you/we need to do to bring this towards maturity?
As I observe myself and whether I am comfortable or not calling someone a “disciple,” I came across this idea: someone is “discipled” when they express themselves in a way that I did not give them — in a sense, “creativity.” Ownership enough to combine what is given with what is already inside/innate.
But perhaps Richard Clarke’s frustration is that we are trying to quantify what isn’t to be quantified. Like asking me, “When is your son a Man?” Perhaps this all betrays a bit of our need-to-control?
In process,
David
I wonder if David is right. That we are trying to quantify what isn’t to be quantified. I wonder, is it true that if we can quantify things, then we will be inclined to use those quantities to formulate decisions on our own?
What does the Bible say? I know it says this:
“A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.” Luke 6:40
We may find this an inadequate description. But
does the Bible provide a more quantified description of a fully trained disciple somewhere else? There is certainly enough biblical material on discipleship that we can make up our own quantifiable description, but is that what God is calling us to do?
Maybe it’s like an ad I saw on tv a long time ago. A craftsman is working on an elaborate cast bronze door. He keeps working on it and working on it. Then he says I know I am done when they take the door away. Perhaps it is the Holy Spirit’s job to tell us when we’re done and need to move on to the next disciple or even no disciple for a season. Perhaps what is called for is another form of waiting on God.
Another though, “AS YOU GO, make disciples . . .” Perhaps we are to disciple some until we go somewhere (or they go somewhere)?
Can I ever be done “being discipled?” If not, then perhaps the standard for when to move-on isn’t in the “product” of (in) the disciple but something else?
David
Patrick,
Many of Wesley’s questions and structure are used as examples in Cole’s book. But there are examples he gives that also go in the direction you were saying helps keep things from becoming systematized. He talks about the difference between open-ended questions and closed “yes/no” ones.
At the end of Appendix 1, which is a collection of various adaptations of accountability questions, even one for pre-adolescent kids, Cole lists the set of most basic and simplified questions he has come across:
1. What is God telling you to do?
2. What are you going to do about it?
Personally, my experience is that when you are in a group of 3-plus-Jesus/Holy Spirit, you are turning toward authenticity. Each member is looking to conform to the image of Jesus Christ, submitting themselves to the transforming influence of the Holy Spirit–who is using the members of these LTGs as part of God hesed and showing them how to practice hesed with each other…that communitas forged in the liminal space where we fight the good fight and watch each other’s back and are ready to lay down our lives for each other without even blinking.
This experience of communitas is what then brings our eyes up and outward to see how we must practice our hesed to the rest of the Body as we engage in the wider “co-mission” of God, as it were. Then, and only then, are we ready to give up our lives, much less our possessions and our comfort items and zones, for the sake of the Gospel.
And, David, yes–our need to control (or rather have someone “be” in control), rather than a willingness to walk by faith (and let God have things “under” control), following the lead of the Holy Spirit, is a huge problem. HUGE!
This is basically why I have come to believe that most “big” churches, whether 500 or 15,000, have such a difficult time with the “mile-wide, inches-deep” disciples dilemma. I saw this as the Community Life Pastor of a church of 3,000. They expected me to “do” something that would make the small group ministry explode with growth. What they didn’t realize is that they basically weren’t up for understanding or embracing the kind of small groups that explode with growth!
I believe the problem is one of top-down organization and hierarchical leadership structuresm–not surprising to anyone here…
When I realized that those at the top were not up for this kind of liminality/communitas, I knew that there was no way it would ever “trickle” down to most of the congregation.
I did, however, have some significant success in my area of influence–and it came through helping about 200 or so really “get” hesed as the “target” of their discipleship/growing Christlikeness. I am gratified to find many of those individuals moving up into the leadership structures of that congregation…and pray for them that the power of what they have learned “infects” others.
I also have an opportunity to share some of my insights/hindsights with the current leadership (since the pastoral staff has turned over at about 80% since I left two years ago, including the senior pastor). All prayers for me are welcome–that I would listen active and clearly hear the Holy Spirit and speak only what God wants spoken…that the Holy Spirit’s influence were be “unhindered” by anything in me and that the hearts of those with whom I will be meeting will be as fertile soil ready to receive a precious seed of truth….
Gotta go…be blessed!
…and, no, one is never “done” (or “finished, either
) being discipled. We may have different persons in our “group”, who are discipling us and whom we are discipling. But we are never finished…not until we cross the finish line at the end of life. Then, God takes whatever we’ve allowed the Holy Spirit to do in us, and “finishes” it by clothing us with imperishable bodies so that we can take our place in the heavenly throng.
This is why we have so many grown people who are still baby Christians…their connection to the vine is not strong enough to produce fruit and be pruned back so as to be able to produce again…and again…
I’m running to keep up with ya’ll.
Peggy, I like what you said about folks in churches now being more consumers than producers. I also think what you said about “hesed” is vital to the process.
Patrick, you have invented a term, “becoming Jesused” - an apt summation of discipleship.
And Celtic Son #12 - I very much agree with your explanation of disciplined, discipled, disciples and I know I am missing the mark in the midst of it.
Yes Richard #13, I read Frazee’s book too and was a bit flabbergasted that he really thought that 30 measurements or outcomes would define it. I’m not frustrated by this discussion, so please don’t lurk away too long.
It appears (and I’m not trying to speak for all of you, just culling the essence of what I’ve read in this post thus far) that we desire so form or way to measure or tell how one is discipled and if one is a disciple. We want some way to tell (are we doing a good job discipling others? are we growing as disciples? etc.).
I’m with Peggy in a desire for effectiveness, not so much efficiency, but I must also be honest with the fact that I want to know how/why/if discipleship occurs because I want to have some control…do I need to work harder discipling jimmy joe because he’s not measuring up to some certain standard I’ve created (even if biblically based)?….and so on.
So, Alan, thank you for this comment: But the short answer is that it is a qualitative test…namely that of Christlikeness. I am not sure whether this can be measured…if at all. But it can be experienced.
I don’t think I can measure discipleship, even though I really want to. But in looking back at my own journey, I know I have been discipled, but not in measurable steps, but in experiences here, and there and over there.
Thanks folks, for letting me ramble a bit on this one…this is a Very helpful discussion!!
Here is a great word picture of discipleship:
“chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.”
Not just chosen, but chosen and DESTINED by God. For some reason I really like the destined by God part. Sanctified, set apart and made suitable by the Holy Spirit. Alan would be glad to note that the whole purpose of discipleship is to relate to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior - for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood.
Note: verse one addresses the disciples who are scattered through-out… They were scattered because of persecution. Is that what it will take to get us out into the world and get to know people who are not like us?
May grace and peace be multiplied to you all.
Of course, I’m sure we would all agree that the sure evidence of a disciple is increasing letters after their name and titles before. Thus the Most Rev. Dr. Alan Hirsch B.A., M.A., D.Theol., Ph.D would be like the top of discipleship. Right? Hello?
Ah, Patrick…I rebuke you on behalf of our brother, Alan….
…and on behalf of the majority of us without the benefit of the more advanced halls of learning (or perhaps I am the lowest of the low on this erudite blog, eh?), but with a lifetime of learning in the School of Hard Knocks!
I’m with you, John! This is a great discussion. And the only way to practice hesed with jimmy joe is to be looking out for jimmy joe’s best interest–and that will mean looking at his life through his eyes and asking God to give you a glimpse of True Reality through the Holy Spirit’s eyes as he looks at jimmy joe…it can never be about whether he is meeting our standards or jumping so high or through the right hoops.
Discipleship is a costly enterprise, friends. Costly to be an authentic disciple, costly to make authentic disciples. Perhaps we just need to stop and count the cost? There can be no economies of scale for we are not willing to make just one kind of cookie, much less use one shape of cookie cutter…especially if God isn’t just making cookies, but cakes and ice cream and omlettes and bread and stew with dumplings…
Patrick, I trust you are just being funny. I wish I had half of the degrees you mentioned. Certainly I don’t believe you need degrees to be a disciple. Actually, the whole thing on existence communication says the opposite.
Of course, Alan. I once heard a great guy talk about the reverend he was introduced to who made a point of being called Rev.
It was a way, this great guy said, of insisting on an initial respect and honor. Not really a sign of anything else.
Or something like that.
I do believe there’s a place for organized learning, but it’s not a sign of spiritual status.
Though, I do like the title Most Reverend.
“Are you a reverend?”
“Mostly.”
To be honest, I think Peggy hit on it. The real disciples I have met in life have encountered suffering and major frustrations in life. And were forced to find a deeper relationship with God in the process. Shouldering the cross and all that.
Hey Al et al…
There was a short lived period when, as a motorbike riding minister, some friends decided Rev Head would be a suitable title… it went downhill when someone asked if the Rev’s first name was Richard. Fortunately after the initial laughter had subsided, so did the idea for the nickname!
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Richard…wherever you’re lurking out there…we are still praying for you, brother.
disciple making:
Encouraging other believers to start right where they’re at right now and be faithful in small things. Teach, exhort, encourage, gently correct others to persevere in saying yes to Jesus and no to the evil one.
I certainly think the thought here is rich and profound: that making disciples is a central element in our calling and the test is Christ-likeness which has a sense of mystery in it, maybe not defined easily or well by us, but certainly can be experienced.
I have to say that a love from and for God and for the others is a central part of that. I didn’t notice that there’s at least another page of comments here, but I’ll send this and read on….
I think while certain things are basic, such as love and holiness, there are as many ways of being like Jesus as there are people.
As much as I admire John Wesley I’m uncomfortable with lists and with some of those there. They may have been good for that culture and time but not all would fit for everyone here and now.
I think both to individuals as well as to communities the Spirit may have to say very different things which include both needed help as well as the Spirit’s creativity in making each unique person in their own way like Jesus himself.
Peggy #34, thanks for the encouragement. I like how you phrased it!
I knew a pastor who wouldn’t respond to you unless you called him Reverend. Yick! I suspect our most important title after our name might be: “C.O.G.” A gold star for the first to guess what it means!
John,
First thought for C.O.G. would be “child of God”, but I had to laugh because I’ve become associated with a group called the Church of God!
My dad never let anyone call his Reverend…he insisted people call him by his first name–even the young people.
Peggy is the Winner!! Yes, COG is Child of God! Congrats!
Peggy #38. Thanks. My comments not withstanding, I got a little more of what I was looking for from some of the comments that followed my last post. And, I think it follows up some of what Alan is moving towards. Discipleship is more about what we are and do than about what we do not do. What our personal relationship with God is, in parallel with our personal relationship with other believers, and (as Alan would put it) those non-yet-believers. Another way to put it is to look at outcomes of activity and how it lines up with Christ.
One of the tomes I have read put some of the ideas this way (A partial list from Randy Frazee’s book)…
I seek to grow closer to God by listening to Him in prayer.
I exist to know, love and serve God.
No task is too menial for me if God calls me to do it.
I believe the community of true believers is Christ’s body on earth.
God’s grace enables me to forgive people who have hurt me.
I am known as a person who speaks words of kindness to those in need of encouragement.
I pray for non-Christians to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
I am willing to risk everything that is important in my life for Jesus Christ.
I believe that a Christian should live a sacrificial life, not driven by pursuit of material things.
I believe the Bible has decisive authority over everything I say and do.
This type of process looks at outcomes against some beliefs, practices, and activities. I personally have found this to be a good way to evaluate myself. But, I find few believers really excited about even this process. It frees up the methodology to fit the individual without losing focus on the target.
A wise person once stated that if we are not acting pro actively in moving towards God in all that we do, that we actually lose ground since He is moving on in His path… Motivational to me anyway.
Blessings.
I love being Christlike, I fail at being Christlike.
The bottom line is that Jesus wants to work through me so that through me He can lead others to Himself and as they come to Him through me in repentance He expects me to be flesh on flesh in that person’s life so as to show them who Jesus is and what He came to do and what we are to strive to fulfill -that is, His Mission, a mission of redemption and a mission where all Christ followers engage in life on life disciple making.
I hope you took Peggy seriously when she spoke of discipling to the fourth generation. I am a
disciple, I disciple you, you disciple her and she disciples another friend who does the same. While all the time this is going on I am pouring my life in my disciple who pours his life into his disciple who pours her life in her disciple. When you disciple to the forth generation you are creating a movement that cannot be stopped.
God help us to stop putting a new fired up new convert into a discipleship class. We need to immediately release them to lead others in the way they have been reached. As they are discipled by the one who led them, they lead others and teach the others what they have learned and right on down the line.
We are seeing this work. New believers are learning while they are in active engagement of the Great Commission. People say it won’t work, but it is working in the disciple making movement here in St. Louis. It works because God is the genius behind it. It works because the Holy Spirit leads it and always brings every new Christ follower back to Christ and His sacrifice and promise of eternal life among others.
It’s a great life -leading people to Jesus and into a discipling relationship that is reproducible and is being reproduced.
Hey there Richard and Bob–nice to “see” you all again!
One of the things Neil Cole says is that it is important to engage the new convert because they are the most excited about the transformation they have seen and experienced in their lives. I think this is what Bob is talking about when he says not to stick them in the discipleship class, but get them to engage…which is the whole point of the LTGs…
I think that many people are nervous about really trusting the Holy Spirit to bring these new disciples along in their journey. If that isn’t the saddest commentary on people’s faith. I certainly understand that some people have had terrible experiences with new believers saying and doing inappropriate things, but I am willing to bet the majority of those are not intentionally discipled believers who have someone bringing them along in something like a LTG.
I want to respond to your post here Peggy. Hopefully you will see it and we can dialog even though the group has moved on. I agree with Bob that we do not stick them in a class. I agree with your discussion of Neil’s book in the practical aspects of real change, learning, and vulnerability happening in a small group environment. Most of the books I have read agree with this.
I need to disagree with you on the last point however. For better or worse, Matthew 28:20
has Jesus assigning the responsibility for discipleship to us. It also fits the model he used for us to copy in His work with the 12. Looking at verses 19 & 20 in Matthew 28
, from my eyes of a project manager seeing a task statement, the goal is mature believers, not just believers. We are not finished until we have ‘trained them to do everything I have commanded you.’ That sounds an awful lot like we sometimes quit halfway through after the easy part (at least in comparison to living with new believers as they work out their salvation) and give them the real training. Coaching them if you like for the race God has put them in.
Rich
Rich,
I need you to clearly identify what “last point” you’re talking about, since I can’t believe that I would say anything about us not being responsible for absolutely thorough discipleship! Absolutely, the goal is mature believers–those growing daily in Christlikeness.
To whom did you think I was abdicating the role of discipleship? The Holy Spirit is the one who transforms lives; we are his “hands and feet”, as it were, in the life-on-life discipling.
I lost you somewhere in this thought, though: “That sounds an awful lot like we sometimes quit halfway through after the easy part (at least in comparison to living with new believers as they work out their salvation) and give them the real training. Coaching them if you like for the race God has put them in.”
What are we quitting half way through? What are you considering the real training…the coaching? Can you give me a better understanding of what you’re actually talking about?
Happy to continue the conversation….
It’s more about the Holy Spirit than it is about us.
Why do we not trust Him to lead us in this discipling process. As we listen (more than hearing) HE always speaks. Why can’t we hear Him and His small voice leading us?
Good day Peggy and Bob, and anyone else still engaged in this thread.
Peggy, you said, “I think that many people are nervous about really trusting the Holy Spirit to bring these new disciples along in their journey.” It is true and Bob is right that the transformation is totally powered by the Holy Spirit. And must be, as we do not have this power or role. However, the verbiage suggested to me that it is ALL His job and we do not have critical role. This is, in looking at many churches in today’s world, the attitude that many assume. They focus on evangelism and then point them at Sunday School and maybe a small group and, even if they do not say it, basically turn them loose to see if they are going to grow or not.
Matthew 28:20
suggests to me that the training and process are under our influence. Just like it is the Holy Spirit that quickens individuals to accept Christ, if we do not say something to them it does not always happen.
That was my point. It was not pointed at you or those in your communities in any way since I do not have any knowledge of how you approach the new believer, but was supposed to be a general statement of the Christendom model currently operating in the US.
In the last several days, I have attended the Willow Creek Leadership conference via video. They introduced a new study they have done of their own church and several others using some new statistical analysis methodology. The finding were very different than they were expecting to find.
And very interesting when we look at the current model of church and the ways in which it does not support the growth of the individual believer as most assume it will and does. Maybe I can share more, but the basic finding was that church attendance and involvement does not predict maturity in a believer. In other words, community as a focus, does not create the disciple that the church has assumed. This was contrary to what they believed they would find and contrary to much of their culture as well and is driving a major rethinking in their leadership. They are being transparent and sharing this process with others, and in fact inviting other churches (500 is the number mentioned) to participate in this process on their dime. Must be important in their minds.
Blessings to all!
Hello, Richard…and Bob, too.
Richard, I am not at all surprised by the results they reported at the Willow conference. That is exactly what I found during my time as Community Life Pastor (assimilation/small groups/welcome) at a large church (2500+). I used to say that the evangelistic outreach would deliver dozens of babies to my door and then abandon them to be to feed and nurture. I said that the birth rate might be booming, but the infant mortality rate was astronomical. And those that didn’t “die” were stuck at infant/toddler stage for the rest of their lives–unless someone came along and engaged with them in the discipleship process.
This is also why I believe God has delivered a vision for a different way to plant churches that are disciple-making…at least in this neck of the woods.
What is wonderful is to realize that the Holy Spirit is doing this same kind of work all over the world–with those who are willing to trust him and listen for his still, small voice in the midst of the roar all around us for more and better of the attractional model, which just doesn’t get the real job done, IMO.
And while Bob knows that I believe the Holy Spirit is crutial to this process, I believe that God has chosen that we would be directly involved in the process–or he would not have given us the both the command and the gifts to disciple. That’s why I describe our work as the hands and feet of the Holy Spirit.
And Bob, it’s not about how talented my hands and feet are–it’s about their availablity to serve the plan of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit.
I believe that people do not trust the Holy Spirit because they have not been truly discipled themselves. It is difficult to figure out how to do something that you have never experienced. Especially so when the model all around for years has not been what is needful.
And so I’m turning in the next week or so to apply what I’ve been learning here these last seven months to finish up the CovenantClusters model many have heard me talk about…if you’d like to be in with the group that works through it with me, Richard, let me know. I can’t have too big a group, but I would welcome those who really want to engage. I certainly am not trying to compete with Willow!
Been there, done that, moving on…following the lead of the Holy Spirit 
Be blessed.
There’s a lot of books out there on this topic. I’d first recommend reading the gospels and see what Jesus did. He did heal the sick, feed thousands, teach hundreds, perform miracles but it’s obvious what he spent most of his time doing. The book linked to below is perhaps one of the simplest books on this subject. It was written in the seventies and forwarded by Bill Graham but it suffers not at all from it’s age. It just unpacks the gospels.
The Master Plan of Evangelism
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Evangelism-repack-Robert-Coleman/dp/0800731220/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5720728-5976016?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186996833&sr=8-1
Peggy, I would be delighted to work with you on the project it sounds like you are pursuing.
I agree with you on the Willow Creek comment you made. I do not believe that their model is in any way the one I would pursue if I was building a local body. I was commenting on them simply because they had the heart to ask the questions of themselves that they did, and then share the results with other churches around them even when it brought their own model into question.
If I do work towards a different community than I now fellowship with (and I currently do not have that option according to my prayers), I would most likely be heading towards the model that the simple church groups are using. At least in the simple church model you add actual opportunity for fellowship to the worship and teaching. I very much agree with what Alan is teaching about church. Using the APEPT model and then add just enough organization regionally to keep it together and no more. Avoid control and seek support.
I am not sure what the best way to connect apart from this forum is Peggy, but I would be happy to add my two cents (to use an americanism).
Another model that I am interested in is a group call Allelon. They are North American in foundation and are working to put together a minimum curriculum (informationally that is), matched with an activity model and a spiritual disciplines model that all have to come together to achieve completion. It is designed totally for lay people, to equip them for spiritual growth and transformation towards action. It is still being developed, but the premise is a good one I think.
Lincoln: I have read that book…and I am currently working with the Graham Crusade team peripherally in their ramp up to meetings here in the Northwest of the US. At the time that book was written, the Graham group felt like when they left an area that the local churches were positioned to pick up those individuals that were brought to Christ and disciple them at least in the basics. The model is now in question, not because there are not as many being saved, but because the churches that they are working with, by and large, do not have a consistent, biblical basis for discipling those entrusted to them.
As I have mentioned in previous posts, I have several times (and continue to) asked my own pastors what a mature believer looks like…or acts like… or anything to help us recognize that point at which we can move on and have them be part of the process of discipling rather than being focused on being discipled. In North America at this point in time, there is very little knowledge that people are willing to work from in this area. As such, there is a very hazy target that those actually interested in discipleship are shooting at, with those they disciple. This is obviously a generalized statement as there are many churches who do have a valid model and are doing great work.
George Barna wrote a book called “Growing True Disciples” where he profiled several different models that were working. Some were fairly flexible and some were fairly rigid. The interesting thing is that the author of one of the most rigid models has gone to work for the Willow Creek Association to help them in their discipleship processes.
God is calling His people back to a goal of being the legs and arms for the Holy Spirit as the Spirit works in individuals lives to create maturity. This is a good thing.
Richard,
I have e-mailed the administrator to forward my e-mail address to you…stay tuned.
Hi
Very interesting information! Thanks!
Bye