A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single question
OK, I want to return to our discussion on the new book. To get to the heart of the material, I have to introduce you to the question that obsessed me for about 3 years non-stop - the question that started my personal quest and culminated in the wrting of The Forgotten Ways. This question will serve as both the starting point AND the constant reference point for all the material in the book as well as this series of blogs. And here’s why it is so central: I am now utterly convinced that in the answer to this question is found some direct clues to the nature of the church as God intended it as well as some answers for the missional malaise of the church in our time and place. So here goes…
About four years ago I attended a seminar on missional church where the speaker asked the question “How many Christians do you think there were in the year 100AD?” He then asked “how many Christians do you think there were just before Constantine came on the scene, say 310AD?” Here is the somewhat surprising answer…
100AD There are as little as 25 000 Christians
310AD There are as many as 20 000 000 Christians
He then asked the question, and it has haunted me to this day, “how did they do this?” “How did they grow from being a small movement to the most significant religious force in the Roman Empire in two centuries?” Now that’s a question to initiate a journey! And delving into this question drove me to the discovery of what I will call Apostolic Genius (the inbuilt life force and guiding mechanism of God’s people) and the living components or elements that make it up. These components I have tagged missional DNA or mDNA for short.
So let me ask you the question—how did the early Christians do it? And before you respond, here are some qualifications you must factor into your answer.
- They were an illegal religion throughout this period: At best, they were tolerated; at the very worst they were very severely persecuted.
- They didn’t have any church buildings as we know them: While archaeologists have discovered chapels dating from this period, they were definite exceptions to the rule and they tended to be very small converted houses.
- They didn’t even have the Scriptures as we know them: They were putting the canon together during this period.
- They didn’t have an institutional leadership: At times of relative calm prototypal elements of institution did appear, but from what we consider institutional these were at best pre-institutional by comparison.
- They didn’t have seeker sensitive services, youth groups, worship bands, seminaries, or commentaries, etc.
- They actually made it hard to join the church. By the late second century aspiring converts had to undergo a significant initiation period to prove they were worthy.
In fact they had none of the things we would ordinarily employ to solve the problems of the church, and yet they grew from twenty five thousand to (around) twenty million in two hundred years! So, how did the early church do it? In answering that question, we can perhaps find the answer to the question for the church and mission in our day and in our context. For herein lies the powerful mystery of church in its most authentic form.
But before the example of the Early Christian Movement can be dismissed as a freak of history, there is another perhaps even more astounding manifestation of that unique and explosive power inherent in all of God’s people in our own time—namely, the underground church in China. Theirs is a truly remarkable story: About the time when Mao Zedong took power and initiated the systemic purge of religion from society; the church in China which was well established and largely modeled on Western forms due to colonization, was estimated to number about two million adherents. As part of the this systematic persecution, Mao banished all foreign missionaries and ministers, nationalized all church property, killed all the senior leaders, either killed or imprisoned all second and third level leaders, banned all public meetings of Christians with the threat of death or torture, and then proceeded to perpetrate one of the cruelest persecutions of Christians on historical record.
The explicit aim of the Cultural Revolution was to obliterate Christianity (and all religion) from China. At the end of the reign of Mao and his system in the late 70’s, and the subsequent lifting of the so called ‘Bamboo Curtain’ in the early 80’s, foreign missionaries and church officials were allowed back into the country, albeit under strict supervision. They expected to find the church totally decimated and the disciples a weak and battered people. On the contrary, they discovered that Christianity had flourished beyond all imagination. The estimates then were about 60 million Christians in China, and counting! And it has grown significantly since then. David Aikman, former Beijing bureau chief for Time magazine, suggests in his book Jesus in Beijing that Christians may number as many as 80 million. If anything, in the Chinese phenomenon, we are witnessing the most significant transformational Christian movement in the history of the church. And remember, not unlike the early church these people had very few Bibles (at times they shared only one page to a house church and then swapped that page with another house group.) They had no professional clergy, no official leadership structures, no central organization, no mass meetings, and yet they grew like mad. How is this possible? How did they do it?
What I suggest now is that you might wish to try and give your answers to this question. Lets chew on it together, try and distill the elements that make for phenomenal growth. Don’t try and translate these for Western contexts as yet. Just suggest answers and some reasons as to how they did it.
Comments
124 Responses to “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single question”
I recently read Rodney Stark’s “The Rise of Chrstianity”. In each chapter he looks at a different sociological reason for the surprising growth of the Church in the first centuries.
Anyway, the first thing that comes to my mind in answering your question is this (and this is my summary of Stark’s stuff too): They ACTUALLY lived out the implications of the gospel together and people saw that it worked.
I don’t know if this is what you were looking for. Thanks for the post, I can’t wait for the book!
My first reaction comes out of my natural skepticism: first, are we sure those numbers are accurate? Second (even if we grant the numbers accuracy) there must be sociological reasons for the explosion. I wonder how other world religions compare to Christianity - what about the growth of Islam or Mormonism?
I love your question. I’m a “pastor”. First, and foremost, though, I’m a believer struggling w/ my unbelief. So, I don’t know that I offered a good response, but you have succeeded in pricking my mind as now I know I will have to think much more deeply on this MOST INTRIGUING question.
pax.
I believe that their focus was on being sent out. They had mission as their raison d’etre. At the core of their church life was the belief that Jesus said “as God has sent me so I send you.” “Go into the world and make disciples.” In a nut shell thay were willing to “GO” Today we need to……. Oh yeah you said we couldn’t do that.
Indeed an intriguing question! My conviction as a church planting M serving in Ecuador is that God has already provided the resources to finish the Great Commission. They are sitting within the four walls of hundreds of churches. If we could somehow get our eyes off the “church program” and onto His Mission, we could see the same tremendous growth you describe in the first three centuries. We are terribly distracted and sidetracked by myriad of second-hand issues.
Alan,
Thanks for a very intriguing post [and thanks for Shaping - like many others, it has impacted me in many ways].
My first impression is that these believers were serious about their faith - which required them to *do* and not just believe.
The thing which strikes me when I look at the situation of both the early church and the beautiful phenomenon of the church in China is the observation that yes there is something which they did, but it was in response to a myriad of circumstances being done to them. Or, to put it another way, there are similarities it seems between the early church’s “situation” within the culture and what they faced (ie. those you listed above by Alan) and the church in China. In both instances where amazing growth occurred it seems the church was placed within a set of circumstances, forcing them to respond in a biblical, incarnational, and missional way. Is the church today in the West capable of disciplining itself to live in a manner or “way” which embodies the same ethos or response even though it isn’t situated necessarily in a place with the same set of circumstances facing the early church or the church in China? Is the church capable of adopting certain values or ways today which are/or were the “natural” responses being birthed out of the early church’s situation?
Great question Alan. I can see this haunting me too…
My gut says something like this: out of the crucible of persecution, their devotion to the way of Jesus was purified and intensified. Their situation required Jesus to be present and active amongst them. This did not allow for half-hearted following of Jesus: they either did or did not. And if they did, they followed his ways of loving other people in ways that completely subverted the norms of the day. Since the norms of the day were brutal and oppressive, they shone like beacons and people wanted to become Christians.
Alan, I am in close agreement w/ Derek & Matt - persecution - the real threat of being killed/punished by the govt. may have driven the church into biblical mode. The communitas may have been developed by daily (or frequently through any given week) gatherings seen as a necessity for survival and/or edification - it became priority, it was worship. Also, these gatherings filled homes, not large sanctuaries, a natural limitation for larger quantity of people at a single gathering, perhaps reinforcing the communitas dynamic. Ministry stayed quite visible and tangible. The deficit of “established/official” leaders “freed” or “forced” the body of Christ into action. The lack of information/Scriptural resources may have significantly reduced the dominance of time spent on harvesting knowledge.
Alan, I think the others make some excellent points. While I believe the circumstances drove them to the point where they either believed or didn’t (as Matt points out), I think that it was the level of commitment/ belief that played a key role in the expansion of Christianity. In contrast, I think it is the half-hearted, semi-committed faith that we see in the West that results in a lack of expansion. Thus, the post-modern mindset that asks “why should I go to church, if those that go barely apply what they teach?” I think that without authentic faith that results in action, the church will fail to attract others (though I’m sure the role of the Holy Spirit is also key). So persecution merely requires an all-or-nothing faith, but the authentic, transforming faith actually inspires expansion.
Those are my humble opinions.
i’m beginning to think i’m just mr disagreeable… frequently when i’m in discussion with others it seems like i’ve always got to have a different idea… i’m beginning to consider the possibility that i’m the one with the wrong ideas - although frequently I also find i’m disagreeing with myself! here’s possibly another wrong concept…
i sat in a similar seminar to mr hirsch… when steve addison of crm posed that question… my reflections have been that the information is helpful, but we’re asking the wrong questions! we’re focussed on fruit when we need to be focussed first on the root. the question “how did they do this?” focusses on the things they did… what they did is the fruit of their faith… what were the things they believed that we have lost or obscured?
i’m increasingly convinced that we need to tap into spiritual reality, that god has already done it all and calls us into partnership with him in his plans. there are some real simple things in the bible that i’d prefer were not there, so i choose to ignore them, or apply my educated mind to justify why they are not relevant to me! we are so possessed by the material that we cannot see or hear spiritual things, and even when we do we are too obsessed with ourselves and our own lives to obey… we reap from that which we have sown…
it is true that throughout history the church has grown during times of persecution. i’m not convinced though that persecution is the root issue, simply that it’s a tool god finds he has to use… the root issue is humanity’s disobedience - your disobedience and mine - and we reap from what we have sown… persecution is a fruit of disobedience…
we read jesus saying “GO out…” and the church sitting on their backsides in jerusalem… until persecution forced them to go out. persecution is simply a tool that removes all of the material comforts that we idolise (literally) and forces us to authentically address the spiritual reality of who god is, who we truly are and what he says the fruit of our faith ought to be… we could choose to cut out the idolatry ourselves, without the necessity of persecution, but it seems we are destined to continue to put other things before god.
a genuine encounter with the risen christ knocked the stuffing out of christianity’s most radical opponent, who became an even more radical proponent of jesus christ - to the point of not being stopped by shipwreck, beatings, public opposition, jail, humiliation… if you and i have not had the stuffing knocked out of our materialistic humanity, have we had a genuine encounter with christ?
the issue is not with the church of yesterday or the christians around us. the fundamental issue is IN you - and of course i address myself too - i am simply another flawed pilgrim on the journey. it is personal first. if your faith is authentic it will bear fruit… what is the fruit of your faith? it begins in your spirit and journeys to your soul and body.
blogging and writing books is helpful if it leads to personal growth and then into maturing action - all too often though thinking and discussing become ends in themselves and an excuse for inaction! if we have a faith without works we’re participating in a lie - it’s simply religious mumbo jumbo that we perpetuate. our western educated christianity has an unbiblical foundational philosophy that knowing something in our minds equals having “done” this part of our christian duty - christianity by osmosis…
we’ve replaced the biblical concept of knowledge with a renaissance celebration of cerebral information gathering. adam “knew” eve - bibical thinking on knowledge is that it is intimate, active, participative, a union, communion, life changing, spiritual, physical, all consuming… it has consequence, it bears fruit…
the growth of the authentic church is the growth of every authentic christian. it’s the difference between opinion and conviction - we have an opinion that christianity is true and the best way, but because it’s just an opinion we can choose to mitigate the bits that will negatively impact our materialism. a conviction will not allow the convicted to avoid the challenges…
call it apostolic genius, or missional dna, the spirit of the early church is the same spirit as has always existed - the spirit of god - the question is what fruit is it producing in your life and mine…
more ramblings from a celtic son
Thanks for the sharp responses so far. Just some respones from me to stimulate further exploration:
1. The issue of persecution is a real one. It does force the church to take its basic message seriously and changes the social patterns in a significant way. It is also purifies the spirituality etc. But what really got me is that it seems that it is only the occasion for the church to discover herself in a more phenomenal form than before. There is noting magic about persecution per se. It is in the category of what living science calls an ‘adaptive challenge.’ the issue is that there are many different ways in which we as the people of God can face adaptive challenges. I think the 21st CEntury is posing a real challenge to the viability of Christianity as we know it.
2. As for Franklin (our much needed doubting Thomas) The figures are the result of the guesses of many who have studied both movements. But however we count it, they blow our normal ways of counting church and conversiion growth. They are both movements who reach what Roland Allen calls ’spontaneous expansion’ (I love that phrase). Exponential, catalytic, growth and impact.
More grist for our mill.
yeah alan…
i don’t disagree with your point, one of my concerns is that somehow we accept the proposition that we NEED persecution to “force the church to take its basic message seriously.” that somehow persecution per se is the answer… the truth is we only need to be forced, when we won’t make the choice for ourselves.
living science’s definition is a reflection of what it observes has already happened. the fact that we have not chosen to adapt without persecution is a sad refelction of our disobedience. we are not limited to prior history, but are god’s prophetic people with a capacity to speak forth his truth and engage in it - that’s the adaptive challenge for the church of the 21st century… obedience to god! the same challenege that has faced every believer in history.
church history is peppered with accounts of communities who have chosen to take the message seriously - celtic communities, the brudderhof, quakers, amish etc - there are also countless numbers of people - unknown, unheralded, uncelebrated except in heaven - who have given their life to mission. they did not suffer persecution to force them to take christianity’s basic message seriously. in the main they made a choice, from a place of material well being, to go - in obedience to christ and identify with the persecuted.
these noble people predominantly stand against material values, so they don’t sell many books. therefore their stories are not heard or are ignored. instead we focus on the stories of persecution… they make better reading, so they sell more! i remain convicted that the primary issue is one of personal obedience.
the reason that statistics are unclear is that they tend not to be a primary concern of those who are involved - they are too busy getting on with taking the basic message seriously - it’s left to later educators to try to analyse. a certain amount of analysis of what others are doing can be helpful. reflection on what we are actually doing is better. at the point where analysis divorces activism, and begins to look up its own backside, the death knell has already sounded. you’d think the smell would warn us…
the ramblings of a celtic son
It’s all pretty fascinating stuff Al, and I suspect the persecution factor is probably a key ingredient in sharpening the movement and making it a more fertile soil. What I’d like to know is whether you have some info on the growth of the Church in China since this period, and in particular over the last 15-20 years during the period of phenomenal economic growth, capitalism and “Westernisation”? I suspect the exponential curve may have hit a plateau. Is capitalism and a consumer society (particularly one that is accepting of Christianity, or even based on Christian principles, as opposed to openly hostile) the natural enemy of the church?
That’s a bit of a simplistic (though probably still valid) question, though, because where the persecution explanation falls down a bit,is when you think about all the other societies currently and throughout history where Christianity is equally persecuted, and where the same phenomenal growth was not observed. There must be more to what they did/thought/believed, how this came out in practice and what the sociological factors in place where in these 2 sitautions than we currently understand (or maybe you do, and it’ll all come out in your book!). So while hostility to the church may be a catalyst for growth of the Word in some situations, I don’t think it’s either necessary or sufficient. I think it’s likely though, that because each of these cases was situational, it’s not easy to replicate the factors leading to these transformations - not to say we shouldn’t try though! What is tough is to sort out what are the key factors from what are just circumstantial confounding factors. Translating them into one’s own cultural context is then the next trick! Looking forward to your ideas when I read the book. Good blogging - like your style.
It is challenging and stimulating to think about these questions we’re asking. I suppose I’m still pondering based upon the conversation so far the following question. How does God desire his people today, facing a myriad of particular culture milieus or “occasions,” to respond in a way which brings about a new movement of apostolic witness giving birth to a new spontaneous expansion of the kingdom? Maybe the forthcoming book will help us or assist in asking these questions.
hullo-o-o al et al…
i’m not a fan of the simplistic persecution hypothesis… the fact that some significant church growth has taken place in times of persecution, does not validate the proposed corollary that persecution guarantees church growth! as you pointed out mr hirsch the key is that it FORCES the church to take its basic message seriously.
adrian c points to the failure of the persecution hypothesis of church growth in the light of the lack of growth during other persecutions… it also fails to embrace the choice of some to develop christian community in spite of seasons of favour. celtic communities, brudderhof, amish, quaker…
the other issue is that most of these communities reject the influence of materialism… so they are not majoring on running conferences and selling books and cds, therefore they are not well known. persecution sells more newspapers and books! likewise there are countless thousands of people who have given their lives to mission… who have made the choice from the comfort and security of their civilised lives, to choose their own adaptive challenge and to identify with the persecuted, they choose persecution rather than have it imposed.
the mindset of the western educated christian is poisoned with humanism and materialism, it is so ingrained we are unable to see it in ourselves. in that environment persecution is one option that removes humanist and materialist philosophy and FORCES the church to take its basic message seriously…
the root issue is that we don’t take the basic message seriously… we clutter up our thinking with all sorts of deep issues when we haven’t even taken the first step to do what jesus calls us to do…
derek’s question “How does God desire his people today, facing a myriad of particular culture milieus or “occasions,” to respond in a way which brings about a new movement of apostolic witness giving birth to a new spontaneous expansion of the kingdom? may well be deep and a great discussion point… but my recollection is that jesus simply said “GO…” his method of training was on-the-job training. we need a restoration of the apprenticeship model rather than the classroom model of learning…
the rambling celtic son
Frankly, I don’t know about that persecution thing. What I do know is, that this question has stayed with me ever since I learned about the facts Alan presented so fully. The church did grow, vastly.
Björn
And it is time for someone to ask again questions of the like. I frequently find myself in the situation, where I am faced with the odds. And the odds are right now not in favour of the church being able to accomplish anything similar to the historical situation of the early church. That might be the reason why we are reading blogs and searching for any means to help us along the way.
Thanks for this post. it is heaven on earth to know that there are people out there with whom we can connect in our struggle. Germany is a secular country and the church has to remember a lot!
I do know about the persecution thing - I see it up close and regularly in many places in the world. No doubt about it, the fat on the side of the steak is cut before its thrown in the grill! However, Stark in the Rise of Christianity and in his new book Cities of God - as well as what I’ve experienced as a pastor - when we take Matthew 25
seriously - and those who are suffering - we connect with them and serve them - it has the same effect on us. Living Matthew 5-7
and Matthew 25
consistently over the long haul changes us and our world. Stark makes a case that the persecution wasn’t as serious as we might think but still powerful. The ethic was so pervasive that when it came the response was very predictable. Neither should we forget the impact of Christians giving up their lives during the plageus. Active obedience and choosing sacrifical living to the point of putting your life on the line is a choice all of us make daily.
Touche Bob. This is what I will later call ‘communitas’. And it has less to do with persecution than with the culture of the community.
Mate I would suggest at least two things were vital. 1. They did not/could not reflect the prevailing culture as it was either tolerating them or trying to destroy them, 2. The leadership paid a higher price for leading and there were very few perks of the job and no real institution to protect.
Today on the other hand 1. a lot of the big churches look like the ‘best’ of what our society/ culture prescribes and 2. Leadership today can have perks to protect and the institution that provides these perks. The most obvious perk is a salary and position.
Now I really know you’re angry Daz! You sound like some sort of raving radical. Better watch out.
And Bob, what’s that Texan metaphor about steak and fat about? Its been bugging me trying to work out what it means.
Alan,
In your book you make a good case that the case to all of the significant Jesus movements throughout history has been discipleship. I believe that you are “spot on” on this. The question is whether or not the kind of massive growth as experienced in China and the early church can be duplicated without persecution–the element they both hold in common.
Would not living systems theory affirm that the level of adaptation is equal to the threat level facing the organism? Thus, persecution by its nature will force a greater adaptation and growth rate than other challenges facing the church. Conversely, without this perseuction, is this same rate of growth possible?
The church does face a major adaptive challenge as it tries to transition into a postmodern context. The question I have is, does the church reoognize the seriousness of the threat. It is not as overt as soldiers knocking down the door. The church is so insulated that it may not even be aware that it is losing its place in the world. I still get all kinds of resistance from people when I say that America is no longer a “Christian” nation.
Regardless, persecution is coming. In Chicago, the upcoming movie “The Nativity Story” was banned from being played at a downtown Christmas party. See the link on my blog http://www.jamesnored.blogpost.com. And this persecution will surely bring about greater discipleship.
Sorry. That link to the Chicago news story is http://www.jamesnored.blogspot.com. A slip of the fingers!
James…link still not working:( At least not for me.
Derek,
Thanks for the heads up. It looks like the blog program added the period to the link. If you take off the period, it should work. If you go to the site, you can see how influenced I have been by Alan!
James, good to hear from you again bro. I do think that the adaptive challenge we face is more subtle than direct persecution. And its the cumulative result of a combination of factors including rapid discontinuous change, technological future shock, environemental threats, geo-political shifts, globalization, genetics, etc. Its going to be one of THOSE centuries it seems!!
BTW for the others, James has a pre-pub copy of TFW’s so he knows where I am going.
hey there mr angryandshallow…
ouch! are you making a serious point, or just angry with leadership you’ve had prior experience with? would you consider every occupation ought to state that salary and job position is a perk… or just those employed by churches?
i’m not sure that we ought to see big churches as a benchmark…(at least in the west) statistically they tend to be more of an anomally, majoring on leadership charisma, so that viewed historically they tend to have a limited life span. trying to reflect the secular culture is not necessarily a method that i’d qualify as effective long term.
bob roberts comment on “active obedience and choosing sacrifical living” is significant - everything begins with individual personal responsibility. it’s easy to point the finger at the failures of others, much more difficult to look in the mirror, act upon our own weaknesses and then set out to make some difference in the lives of others.
the broader community tends to be significantly disinterested in our sunday services, our discussions, our doctrines and what we know about christ. they tend to be much more interested in acts of goodness that are consistent with the person and character of christ…
can we rephrase the question from “how did they do this?” to “how are we doing this now?” rather than just discuss our observations of others, and our reading of the writings of others, what are some of the contributers to the blog doing in their community that is “working?” what have you seen or been part of that is working? what are the principles and practices that are helping faith communities move forward today?
the ramblings of a celtic son
p.s … on a lighter note mr hirsch’s prophetic edge is apparent even in the smallest detail… e.g. if he had titled his work “forgotten the way” then the acronym would be open to possible misunderstanding
Alan, it’s good to participate again with you too. For those of you who haven’t had a chance to interact personally with Alan, let me encourage you to take one of his cohort classes or go to his seminar. He has had a profound affect on my life, and the material in The Forgotten Ways is a big part of this. I was blessed to spend two weeks with Alan at Fuller as he taught the material from this book. Believe me, it is worth it. If you want to help start an apostolic/missional revolution, spread this book around like a virus!
To Celtic Son = yes, it would be good to share stories of what “is working” for us. We have had some success in reaching non-churched people through movie outreaches–Passion of the Christ, Narnia, and hopefully the upcoming The Nativity Story. Also, a month ago we started a Starbucks discussion group/book talk that meets once a week. We have already picked up three people there, and this has helped some of our own young adults.
We also this year began a children’s outreach, going into schools, mentoring kids, providing food, clothing, and school supplies to needy children. We have tried to help the same families throughout the year. Now some of these families that we have helped have started showing up at our church, with tears in their eyes. Studies are being set up this week. Prayer was a big part of this, as we have prayed for people by name. Personally, I have started begging God for souls, and God is responding. In my personal life, I have also adopted Michael Frost’s missional practices, B.E.L.L.S., with one of my elders, in which we try to bless 3 people’s lives each week. I would like to hear from others on what has “worked.”
Alan, even as I participate in this discussion, I can feel healing and renewal from rubbing shoulders with those passionate about mission. Thanks for doing this.
Alan when you cook a big steak sometimes there’s a lot of fat around it - it may weigh a lot - but it’s just fat - when you trim the steak, it’s very lean - it’s the real meat, the real deal, not much is wasted - that’s the metaphor.
yeah mr hirsch…
i’m with mr nored in saying thanks for doing this… and thanks to you mr nored for some tales of missional action…
“too much talk about theory makes me weary,
real life change pumps blood round my veins”
great stuff mr nored, great stuff…
i’d be interested in further info on your “discussion group/book talk that meets once a week” and what attracted three new people to the group…
having thrown down the gauntlet i’m duty bound to come up with the goods!
we’re a small church that began with a dream and three families, seven years ago. we met as a small group in our homes for six months and then we began to seek ways to invest in local people.
our only external support was spiritual, another church prayed for us and their pastors gave us the opportunity to meet with them regularly as a sounding board. no facilities, no money, no groovy musical people… no sound system, no lights, no whiz bang sunday service, no staff, no offices, no vehicles… and this is no whinge… we had something greater… we had a dream…
our aim is to actively build authentic, relational community, rather than settle for “community” as a term of location! we discussed ways in which we could connect into existing opportunities and realised that schools were one of the few remaining gathering points in our culture. so we’ve been intentional about building relationship with a local primary school.
it takes time to earn trust in our community, patience is a virtue i was previously lacking (still do, only hopefully less so). god knew.we have taken time to establish ourselves as a people of blessing. to give stuff to our community in intentional ways. i was concerned about the witchcraft content of a school reading book my daughter brought home, so we approached two local primary schools and asked if we could give them $1000 to buy reading materials that would be consistent with our family values (avoiding using church language or christian terminology, aiming instead to speak to the values base of our local community) to add to their libraries.
in discussion with the school principal i discovered that they were planning to run a seminar on “restorative justice,” with terry o’connell (see http://www.realjustice.org) it’s a great programme with great values - and completely secular. we gave them $1000 towards financing the seminar and a few of us attended.
i joined the management committee of the local district youth service. i’m no longer a youth, yet i have input into direction of the youth service and have the opportunity to learn first hand about problems local youth are facing - things i would never hear in a remote “church” leadership position. i have the opportunity to have input in discussions, like those regarding whether we should or shouldn’t supply condoms to young people at events the youth service runs and so on.
next year a young man i am coaching, who connected with christ about six months after we started this venture, will join me on the management committee. he has grown up locally and consequently has a network of relationships. we will have a transition year and he will then sit on the management commitee, as i move on and seek to connect with other opportunities, with people at my stage of life.
four months ago we ran a “community building day” this year we organised to clean up the local primary school. we approached local companies to supply materials, we partnered with the parents and staff of the school and another local church helped. we organised and ran childcare for the day, enabling parents to come and get involved. it was a huge relational success. we filled six skips (industrial bins)with rubbish, painted outdoor furniture, cleaned gutters, cut down overhanging branches, relocated furniture etc, etc, etc. there were over 100 adults involved and 40 kids cared for… the school and its community were blessed and we enjoyed ourselves and felt that we had achieved something useful. a real win/win
we partner with the school in running a weekly playgroup, in their school hall on friday mornings - families come because it’s a school related thing, and the school refers parents to help transition kids who will come to school for the first time next year. we have discussed a mentoring programme with the school and have initial approval for next year - we have a worker who has just completed the training to run a mentoring programme auspiced by world vision.
we run a youth group on saturday night, utilising the school hall - the young people all come from families who are not church attenders, we also run a sunday morning church service in the hall. presently i’m organising a backyard “baby naming ceremony” for a couple of local families who kind of believe there’s a god, but are not into church. we’re planning next year’s “community building day” aiming to build on this year’s events and get more businesses and other community based organisations involved.
in the last couple of years we’ve been developing a leadership matrix - which coordinates caring for people with practical service - being martha and mary, in an attempt to ensure we look after the care of those who consider they’ve connected, and also continue to remain missional.
where to stop? it’s a dream and the dream continues… who else has tales to tell of walking in jesus’ shoes in their realm of influence?
pax
the rambling celtic son
James…Yup gotcha. I should have caught that..doh. I’ll take a look at your blog. I’ve enjoyed the material from a distance so far as I’ve tried to read “The Shape…to Come” and Frost’s “Exiles” thoroughly. I’m looking forward to the challenges this conversation will bring about:)
I am new to this blog and am enjoying the thread so far. I believe that my friend Chris has been in this blogmunity (I just made that up) for some time and pointed me in this direction this morning during breakfast; an incredible omelette from a small cafe in Bellingham.
I was sharing with him some thoughts from a lecture given by Rabbi Edwin H. Freedman DD, entitled; “The Challenge of Change and the Spirit of Adventure” that I think are stimulating to the conversation.
The essence of the lecture (given on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of the discovery/”I am lost please tell me where I am” of America by Christopher Columbus) is on the need for the kind of adventurous thinking and action that precipitated the breaking the belief that the equator represented the end of the world.
Freedman states (pointing to Ptolmey’s map of the world); “The map bottoms out at the Equator which became for almost 1300 years an emotional barrier-an artificial limit born of mhythology and preserved by the anxiety of the day–like the 4 minute mile, the sound barrier, polytheism before the Biblical prophets, the eter in physics, the 4 humors of medicine, and perhaps the 55 mile an hour speed limit. Such barriers can also be the basis for formatting an entire civilization, and they can only be broken by the kind of adventure that encourages serendipity, not by more thinking about the problem.” (emphasis mine)
Is it possible that we are at one of these “emotional barriers” that requires the radical reformation of our thought and practice?
By the way, Freedman’s point in the lecture was that he believed that the family therapy movement was a stuck system. He defines a stuck system and the way out of it as follows. I share these things because I believe that the answer to the question that Alan puts forward is still found in Freedman’s comments.
The signs of a stuck system:
People keep trying the old ways with more and more energy, more and more resources; and the lack of significant results makes them try harder.
Everyone keeps trying to solve old questions with new answers rather than changing the question.
A polarization results between extremes so that no one can imagine the infinite range of other possibilities in between.
“When a relationship system (christendom) reaches that point, it can only get unstuck, that is, experience renaissance, when it can bring forth leaders who can separate themselves enough from the emotional processes around them so that they can see things differently, who are hell-bent to pursue their vision, who can persist in the face of the sabotage of others, enemies and colleagues, who are challenged where others are made anxious, and who value adventure more than safety. This necessary condition for fundamental change is equally true for any relationship system, be it a family, an organization, an entire civilization, or a movement.”
I think Matt brings compelling input here - even now, we have leaders/thinkers who see that the West must change and have a strong sense about how to go about it - but they will attempt to bring that change by traveling the country/countries teaching/preaching/writing books/live remotely from people or in another “untouchable” cave. Their vision won’t be big enough to start small. Too much to give up. In the words of Pink Floyd (and echoed by Fred Durst): “We’re just [a bunch of]lost souls swimming in a fish bowl,year after year, running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears, wish you were here.”
In the West, it will most likely take a physical threat imposed upon us to change to a movement. Otherwise, by the time a decade has past everyone is sick of each other. We despise John 13
(perhaps John 17
too) in the West.
Time will tell what you guys do!
hey matt…
i believe we do need “radical reformation of our thought and practice” and i reckon the rabbi is right that it begins with “changing the question.” bob roberts also spoke of “active obedience and choosing sacrifical living” - that’s a reformation of christendom thinking to get back to the root teaching of jesus and obedience to that… so what are you involved in/planning/doing to unstuck the system?
when we see following jesus as “the kind of adventure that encourages serendipity,” and embrace that as a priority, over “more thinking about the problem” then there’s hope… and i love the fact that the insights come from the teaching of a rabbi
seeingkalos i agree with your observations… but it’s easy to observe and critique. rather than concluding as you have “Time will tell what YOU guys do!” why not share what you are doing/going to do? like the rabbi says “more thinking about the problem” just contributes to the stuckness of the existing system
selah
the rambling celtic son
Hi Celtic son. You ask if I’m making a serious point (I am) or if I am just angry with leasdrship I have had previous experience with (I’m not). I think the question is whether my point is true or not….or in part at least. The problem is that when you are fed by the institution (salary, kudos and a place to position yourdself with a degree of safety and comfort) it takes a special person to allow it to die. It is not till the change of not changing is greater then the pain of the change that most people will take the hard steps…..and most, while mentally giving ascent to the forgotten ways thinking and engaging in the dialogue, are not yet at that point and may never get there! I further contend that the current instutition therefore is the greatest barrier to the change needed and that until this is accepted the risk is that no real change will occur.
You also correctly state that we should not see the big churches as the bench mark and they are bit of an anomally. However we must face two truths…..they grew up in the current institution which at its heart sees big as better and secondly, many smaller churches would love to big!
But what would I know aye!
Celtic Son,
I would say I am struggling with the implications of my own thinking. Not that I am sitting around thinking, I am not. I am part of a new alternative faith community in our town and am trying to raise the awareness of what it means to truly consider the implications of the life and teaching of Jesus, not just make application of the teaching. There is a profound difference between writing a check to a homeless shelter because Jesus loves the poor, and confronting my consumptive lifestyle because Jesus loves the poor.
The struggle comes when we gather (every other week in our case) and the vast majority of people who don’t even understand the language we are using. “Rhythms?” “Tribe?” “Incarnational Living?” So many people are 1, 2, even 3 years behind the thinking, let alone the living, of many of us. I feel like a learner and most of the people I am around look at me as a pioneer.
So, what am I doing, I am trying to be in touch with people who are thinking outside the system, or, in many cases are outside the system.
I tend to agree with AngryandShallow on this point, “the current institution therefore is the greatest barrier to the change needed”. The emotional impact of questioning the western institutional church can be a lot like reporting your abusive father. The cost is often too high for the most abused to come forward. We have to break the fear and face the “persecution” that we are going to face.
It’s been a while since I read up on it, but my understanding persecution is no magic potion… that in fact severe persecution almost obliterated the church in parts of West Africa (Roman Empire times) and in Japan (around 16th C).
Without wishing to be disrespectful, I feel the word “persecution” is being tossed around rather lightly here… I don’t think we can compare not being allowed to showing a movie or upsetting a few people in the institutional church with being imprisoned and having an electic cattle prod poked in your genitals for your faith (one of the delightful methods of torturing Chinese dissidents). Words lose their meaning and power if they are used carelessly.
While I resonate with some of your sentiments, Celtic son, if you stick around I think you’ll find Alan’s argument is that spiritual passion is “necessary but not sufficient” for exponential growth of a movement.
It’s almost like being an enthusiastic farmer but not knowing the first thing about propagating plants. Much energy can be expended, and there will be some fruit… but not nearly as much as if that farmer “worked smarter, not harder”.
Alan argues that the “attractional” model of institutional church actually limits growth, while a more organic approach is “working smarter, not harder”… it allows the posibility of unleashing exponetial multiplication growth, instead of addition growth.
Hang around and see… and get your nose in the book when it’s in print.
Ahhhh! a female voice in our predominantly male conversation so far. Welcome Jan–I hope you stick around to correct us when we stray. And you are right about where I think we are heading. The answer is never simply one-dimensiional. Its so easy to say the problem lies in our spirituality of lack of it. Its obvious. But exponential movements are more than pure fire. There have been fiery millenialist movements that just dissapeared and never grew much at all.
And Matt, I so love your input ala R.Freedman. In fact this is encapsulated in one of the elements of mDNA called ‘communitas’ - the spirit of adventure and the willingness to take risks and to be willing to stay there in the liminal space.
Janet,
Point well taken. I agree that my use of “persecution” does not really fit with a global use of the word. I will stick to words that relate to “stuck” vs. “un-stuck”, which may fit our ssituation better anyway.
To Matt - you are so right that most people are way behind in this thinking and don’t understand our language. In our church I have used the term “missional” because it does evoke cross-culturalism and is helpful to conceptual people. Others, however, hear words like this and think that we’re speaking Greek or chasing after a fad. I have had conversations with Dr. Gailyn Van Rheenen, who leads Mission Alive, http://www.missionalive.org , a missional church planting organization. They use “Christ-formed” churches externally, and “missional” as internal language. I don’t want to lose terms like this, because we need a new language. But we certainly need to define what we mean and use word pictures and stories to shape the consciousness of our members.
To Janet-you are correct, a movie banning and irritated members hardly compare to violent persecution. That is part of my point–that churches today hardly recognize the threat that they face. But the thought of Christian movies being banned would have been unheard of even twenty years ago in the states. Christendom is breaking down. This in itself, true, is pretty weak persecution–more an irritant than a call to arms. But when the worm turns, real persecution will surely follow. It is coming, I say, and this may not be all bad. Certainly the apathy, complacency, and lack of mission in today’s churches is not all good. While there may be a bit of a mixed picture historically on persecution, biblically, God has often used persecution when his people have turned from him.
The nature of the Christian movement was always a movement of people on the margins of society. For too long we have had the “respected” seat of honor at the table of government, serving as the chaplain of society. Jesus said that his disciples would face persecution–the fact that we have had so little in the US, well, what does that say about us? Have we been faithful?
James, I think what is starting to happen in the States is a delayed version of what has happened in virtually every other Westernised nation… that the institutionalised church has become far less significant in the life of the nation, and seen as irrelevant by many.
I don’t accept the inevitability of systematic persecution following this slide… when one has a democratic constitution, an independent judiciary and a free press it’s hard to conceive of state-sanctioned torture or inprisonment for the exercise of religious freedom… except by military conquest. But it may mean some restrictions on certain types of religious activity. (e.g. it would be illegal where I live to make statements that might stir up hatred against Muslims… not that I would ever want to!!!!)
It is precisely this movement of the institutionalised church from the centre to the margins of society that actually liberates our imagination to conceive of more organic methods of disciple making that have the potential to unleash exponential growth…
Am I stealing your thunder Al?
Eagerly awaiting the next installment!
Janet - Torture, it is true, is hard to imagine. But confiscation of property, imprisonment, banning of assembly? These are not all that hard for me to imagine. Lawsuits already are cropping up against churches that exercise church discipline, with huge financial judgments. While there is a push currently in the States from some evangelicals to pass a constitutional amendment against homosexual marriage, I can imagine fifty years from now a constitutional amendment banning any form of bias against homosexuality, religious or otherwise. Laws are subject to the will of the people.
It may be that the US will become secularized like Europe, but I rather doubt it. We have a different history, and it still is a very “Spiritual” country. Will the church be viewed as irrelevant? That is a path we seem to be headed down, though there is still a significant (but declining) church-going minority. We both also seem to agree that marginalization is good and allows for more “organic” growth. This was true in the first century and in China.
But what of Europe? The church has been on the margins there for decades, and yet has done little. Western Europe is an incredibly difficult mission field. Where goes our theory there? Is it that the church is still propped up financially by the state in Europe, not allowing it to really fully experience marginality? Or something else? Does not marginality have the same mixed results historically as persecution in being a catalyst for discipleship and organic growth?
Thanks to Alan, Janet and James for the very challenging discussion. I had to read each of your comments slowly.
If it is indeed true (and if I’m understanding it correctly) that comunitas is birthed from the community of faithful ones being pushed or moved to the margins or a continuous liminal experience then it seems one of the keys is how can the church seek out maintaining a continuous desire to be “liminal pilgrims” (this is a term I’ve thought of only recently but don’t know if it hasn’t any substantial meaning to it.) If living in the margins or in a place of continual liminality for the church brings forth comunitas within the church in a specific context, which then brings about a response or new birth of obedience, faithfulness, and authentic growth then shouldn’t we desire to continually seek to live in that “liminal” space as difficult as it may be? It seems church history exemplifies that a group of faithful ones has responded to a liminal experience, but then over time slowly compromises or dies out. I don’t know if this is a good example but the men and women we now call the “desert fathers and mothers” in the 4th century, who reacted to the Constantine ruled church comes to mind here as they sought to live out an authentic faith and uncompromising obedience. Today I think of contemporary missional orders which spring up in response, some of which seem to inspire and are continually vibrant such as UNOH in Australia, while others over time seem to fizzle out and loose their charism and witness.
I apologize if I’m being redundant to the conversation, but as a pastor in North America it seems more and more difficult to not compromise and to move and shepherd people in a direction to respond to live as pilgrims in this “liminal” space. It is much easier to stay in a place where things can be controlled, are not ambiguous, and predictable, to continue to live in the cobwebs of “Christendom” which are more comfortable then having to set out on pilgrimage.
I’m sure I’m not getting these terms or am not using them even correctly, but I thought I’d give a shot at trying to converse with them and these are the thoughts which came to mind. Set me straight where needed.
On the journey with you all……
Derek, I’m not going to the communitas stuff before its time.
Though it is tempting to sort circuit the journey. And again, I think it is one of the elements of mDNA that make up the phenomenon, so lets keep going.
Great questions James. I think Al would know more than I just how much the emerging church is “flying under the radar” in Europe, (widely travelled sticky-beak that he is.)
Mmm… your theory interests me about the slippery slope to persecution… on what grounds could there be “confiscation of property, imprisonment, banning of assembly” that would be within the parameters of the US constitution? I just can’t see how this could happen… but hey, I’m a long way away and willing to learn.
Janet, have you seen the movie Pacific Heights with Michael Keaton? The landlord ends up losing his home to the tenant who doesn’t pay his rent because of ridiculous California tenant laws.
Most likely, the bulk of the persecution in the US, including confiscation of property, will come through civil lawsuits against churches who discipline or take stands on moral issues. Civil lawsuits are bankrupting the Catholic church in the US. “Banning of assembly” could come through zoning churches out of many city areas, much as Giuliani did with strip clubs in New York City. In Missouri, one of the worst offenders of Emminent Domain law, they have been forcing out smaller businesses that make less money, making them sell so that the big companies can come in. This is happening right down the street from our church building. What is to stop them from doing the same to us? We don’t give them any revenue, and so it is a real possibility that we will be forced to sell and move. Of course, that might put us out on the “margins” of town . . .
First Peter addresses a people who sociologically are in exile, “scattered” among the nations. From what we know of history, there was no state-wide persecution of Christians at that time. And yet, it is clear that they were a marginalized people who were “suffering” for their faith. I don’t think that they were being tortured, but sociologically and psychologically they were in turmoil. We may be headed towards this state.
Imprisonment certainly is harder to imagine. But in Canada, this has happened against Christians who have engaged in evangelism at public events. It’s in my blog archives somewhere. Breaking of zoning laws is a criminal offense.
Since there are Christians being tortured around the world, perhaps we could call this marginality rather than persecution. Your caution here is well taken. Whatever it is termed, we are facing dramatic changes that include Christians suffering for their faith.
Thanks for the “re-direction.” I definitely don’t want to short circuit the conversation. Blessings….
Thanks James… I have no doubt that the institutional church will find itself in a different kind of place in the US in the next 30 years.
I actually think there is some merit in our re-examining “church discipline” to pick out one of your examples… it almost always seems to be handed out for “sexual” sins while hypocrites and “lovers of money” (things Jesus seemed much crosser about than sexual lapses) can be tolerated or even applauded in many churchy circles. Perhaps even this is God’s invitation for us to take a good hard look at ourselves and see if we really reflect the heart of Jesus… or if we more reflect the spirit of the Pharisees.
I had thought the lawsuits faced by the Catholic church were for keeping known or suspected paedophiles in ministry with the inevitable tragic results. I don’t think the church should be expected to get away with appalling behaviour just because it’s the church.
The very early church did not experience state-run persecution, although we know from the experiences of Paul that local governors, local religious communities and certainly some Jewish groups did persecute him from time to time. If Peter wrote his epistle in the time of Nero… which is not unlikely… the first wave of state persecution had already begun.
Janet, you are very right in saying that we tend to highlight sexual sin and ignore materialism in church discipline. For instance, I’ve never heard of anyone being disciplined for being greedy–one of the things that Paul lists in 1 Cor. 5
.
Yes, the actions of those certain Catholic priests are appalling. I wholeheartedly agree. I just point to this as an example of how a church could have property confiscated if public sentiment begins to believe that its stance on moral issues have “harmed” others.
Back to our earlier discussion–it would seem that marginality or persecution and the discipleship that it potentially triggers is only one potential element in exponential growth. There must be something else . . .
“Does not marginality have the same mixed results historically as persecution in being a catalyst for discipleship and organic growth?” Well, yes.
Been thinking about this too, and thought of a better analogy than the farming one I used earlier… and that is the analogy of yeast.
One single yeast cell can divide and produce millions of yeast cells within a relatively short space of time… if you provide water, oxygen, an energy source (usually sugar) and the right temperature.
We talked about passionate spirituality before as an essential ingredient for missional growth… or as Al would call it, Jesus as Lord at the absolute centre. I would call this “necessary but not sufficient” to produce exponential organic growth of the Kingdom of God. In the case of yeast you must have water, sugar, oxygen, and an appropriate temperature… each one of these ingredients is necessary but not sufficient… all ingredients must be present.
Al has picked apart what he sees as the essential ingredients that must be present to release this kind of exponential potential in the growth of the Kingdom.
What do you reckon Al? Am I whetting appetites to dig a bit deeper? Stay tuned! (I live in Melbourne so I’ve been able to hang with Al for a while and have a few sneak previews… unfair advantage!!!)
Keep going Jan, you’re doing a great job. Perhaps you should co-blog with me.
Thanks Al… don’t know about co-blogging but I’ll certainly hop on when I have time! I’m impressed with the intelligence and spiritual passion of the cobloggers here evidenced by the conversation so far.
many of the discussion points have sparked thoughts… i’m not sure about formulaic approaches to kingdom thinking janet… but i’ll reserve judgement until i’ve tasted the beer!
slaandjivaa (to your health)
celtic son
I do not think that persecution in the west is an issue at all (and I do not see it being much of a problem in the next few years). The bigger problem (in the west) is our love affair with materialism, entertainment, success and so on. This is a huge factor…. huge barriers. That is the matrix we are living in. Even if we are successful in pinpointing the problem and coming up with an appropriate answers, ie “the apostolic genius”, will there be a collective will to move towards it? It would drain all the hope out of me to come to the conclusion that we need persecution before things could grow. (seeing the issue here is numerical growth…. 25000 to 20 million).
Yet I think there is hope. I believe there is hope so long as we are willing. This will not get done by those who are easily seduced by the lure of the safe and predictable. Those who love the things this world has to offer. (In the Lord of the Rings it was Aragorn who became king, the very one who did not want power. It was a hobbit, the least of all creatures who were entrusted with the task of destroying the ring). It will come about by those who are willing to count the cost. But let us not underestimate the power these things (materialism, entertainment and success) have on our hearts.
Why do I believe there is hope? Because deep inside these things leave us empty. They are not worthy of our time and energy. These things leave a trail of misery. In the midst of our materialism there are many who are lonely, without hope, addicted, abused, empty and so on (for money is the root of all kinds of evils). In all those circumstances we need to be missional to the core. In the dark of loneliness, hopelessness, addiction, abuse, and emptiness a light must shine. As a result we need churches that are willing to call into question everything we do as church.
I’ll end off here by referring you to a site. The blog entry is called “A Call for Church Revolution” This article comes from the early 1960’s but it is the same kind of call many of us are making today……….. http://inwardoutward.org/
Been watching, listening, reading and re-reading. It seems to me that there was something present in both the early church’s matrix and the matrix in China. It seems this “element” is present in many of the cultures where some version or spontaneous expansion has taken place, Africa, S. America, etc… Something keeps the church and the broader society in a liminal state which fosters new thinking, energy, ideas, creativity and responsiveness.
I am not sure what the element is. I don’t believe it is persecution. The ekklesia has still grown most, from a global perspective, when God has answered the prayer for peace and there has been freedom of m movement around the world.
I am pretty confident that whatever the element is, it is not present in the West. I am thinking there was a cultural awareness that the prevailing system was not working for the masses of people. But, I am not sure this was the case during the 100-310 period, at least where the expansion happened. China was ripe for a counter-systemic movement as were Africa and S. America.
I believe we are seeing signs of dissatisfaction, but most of it is still aimed at political agendas, not at life as a whole. The church (and I use that term instead of “ekklesia” to represent the institution) in our country is still praying for politicians who will make the necessary changes and right the wrongs of our society. Not a very systemic approach.
But if we always need persecution of the serious variety to motivate us, what does that say of the power of the gospel guys? Surely there is more than enough motivation for good reasons to make changes. Don’t we have to believe that?
frank doiron says “the bigger problem (in the west) is our love affair with materialism, entertainment, success and so on” absolutely right… the challenge for me personally is that it is simply one of degree… we may challenge the extent to which the institutional church is caught up in these factors… but be careful about how good our perspective is as we squint to see past the log! our scale may differ, the symbols and expression may differ, is the root that much different?
i would add to frank’s list a fixation, in western culture with the accumulation of information that has no application in our lives… one of the frustrations for me is the amount of fruitless discussion i engage in, the amount of useless information i read, the amount of pointless television i watch, the amount of unnecessary things i say and the amount of unhelpful argument i can cause… much which, i am aware, stems from my addiction to information and self-justification…
this may also point to one of the factors that distract us from the “element” matt is looking for in “cultures where some version of spontaneous expansion has taken place.” is that “element” a simplicity of faith, a capacity to trust god, a capacity to believe? is it the capacity for a childlike (though not childish) faith, that is not adulterated by the underlying dualistic, hedonistic, materialist, humanist, self-centric, sociology that underlies our system of education and consequently our thinking.
apologetics is a decidely western concept, an attempt to use the rational - post renaissance - educated mind to argue god’s case for him intellectually. what it also does is remove the “mystery” of god, move god from the realm of the spirit, to the realm of the intellect. the church that builds on that ground, moves away from spirituality and the miraculous power of the spirit of god… we assume a position of intellectual superiority… what’s the root of that?
in the west we are fixated on information accumulation, to such an extent that it is an addiction… stop for a moment and ask yourself - in the normal course of a day how long do i go without a need for an information fix… turn on my computer, check my blog, turn on tv, listen to the radio, check emails, check the net… in comparison how much time do i spend quietly connecting to the christ, listening, waiting, centring on him…?
i don’t say these things in judgement… i’m on my feet saying “my name is mike and i’m an addict…” what we need is more of him and less of us… more of his ideas and less of ours… most documented “revivals” are birthed out of times dedicated to prayer and waiting on god…
what i have seen, in some of the discussion in how to move forward, is a journey backwards - where emerging church practitioners have been seeking to restore elements of mystery to conversations and gatherings. it seems like there is a tendency - which i don’t know is actually rational - to retreat back, perhaps to find a place before things “went wrong.” people moving back to the early church, the first centuries, celtic spirituality - back before renaissance and the elevation of human thinking…
i do think that there is great merit in matt’s quoting of rabbi freedman, and that it begins with “changing the question.” also bob roberts challenge to “active obedience and choosing sacrifical living.” the future begins with the choices YOU make (me too!) and with what YOU and i do with what we have now.
selah
a celtic son
Indeed, I am honored to be blogging with such sharp minds! Thought provoking and stimulating - you all are helping me to think these things through. Please allow me to offer insight into my earlier presupposition/assertion that persecution will/must be present in the West’s birthing into a missional movement - yet, I am open to being stretched even more by you all.
Here goes: If we are in basic agreement that the church in the West is (generally speaking) “sick in the head,” then two things can occur: we can change because of prophetic voices - unlikely, prophets are not a part of “official” leadership, we don’t like accountability or voluntary change, especially when we are all getting so fat. You should have seen the faces of the Kenyan church leaders I trained when I told them we have “weight loss” programs for our dogs!
The dissatisfaction of the current state will impact only a few without persecution. This leads me to the other possible outcome. Historically, men set on an evil/misdirected course do not change until pain is injected to disrupt the status quo. I.E. - see Judges, the Prophets, Early church struggled to go to Gentiles (the scum of the Earth at the time, Peter even having to be rebuked), Paul would focus on Synagogs until persecution drove him to Gentiles, the Reformation (war broke out among saints). China’s installment of communism - I could go on and on. Humanity does not change direction without the infliction of pain or the identifiable/recognizable threat of life. Remember, it took TWO nukes of devestation, not just one, for Japan to “throw in the towel” and let go of the bad theology that emporer was God which drove their conquest of the world.
There may be a remnant that will flourish in a missional mode with or without persecution, but I would not count on a major missional church planting movement without it in the West. The Church is dark, very dark here - but I am looking to glean from Alan’s insights to see if I can be convinced otherwise!
SeeingKalos, some good thoughts. I do believe that growth in the West can occur without persecution. Witness the disciple-making movements in America of the early Methodists, as well as Neil Cole’s modern day efforts in helping the starting of over 800 churches.
But I have to admit, I also think that there may be more missional potential from persecution than we perhaps we have given credit. Evidentially, the two greatest disciple-making efforts in history have occured under persecution. Researchers would say that this is not a causal relationship–there are too many other factors–but that there is an association between the two. This association needs to be examined more fully.
Persecution is not a magic pill. The evidence points to this also, for persecution has wiped out certain Christian movements. But I, like you, think that it takes a massive jolt to the system, so to speak, to awake Christians from their malaise–at least in the West. It may be that the threat of extinction will be enough to cause this jolt. I’m sure Alan will expand more from living systems theory on this. But I question whether or not most churches will make the hard changes necessary to become missional without a direct threat.
For example, we know that small groups multiply best, and decentralized groups can respond more effeciently, creatively, and effectively to a changing environment. But are most church leaders willing to give up this control for merely declining numbers and malaise? So far, no. But in China, the church has been forced to decentralize because of persecution. This is a profound key to growth, and I’m not certain whether it can happen to the same degree without forced change.
When enough missional churches become “successful” in reaching people, however, we may reach a tipping point, and others will follow. Everyone loves a winner. Positive success is a motivation that can bring about change in structure. As much or as quickly as persecution? Well, I’m just not sure as of yet.
I think I still have to believe that all the potential for cataytic, transformational, impact is within us already. And I also have to believe that it is not entirely dependent on external circumstances. This is not to say that it is not connected in some way to external forces like persecution, but it is not dependent on them–it is dependent on the Spirit and on the power of the Gospel itself. My conclusion rather is that what gets in the way is a highly institutionalized and static view of the church and its mission.
like seeingkalos - it is good to have the opportunity to be trading thoughts with you all… your thinking unlocks thinking… though i’m still challenged about maintaining a balance between reflection and action…
i am nonetheless ever the optimist… i do believe that in christ we have the potential for change within us… my reflections on Eph 2
- particularly with thoughts to verse 10 - are that rather than existing within us per se, “all the potential for catalytic, transformational, impact is” in christ… and he brings us into him - so we have access to “all the potential for catalytic, transformational, impact” that is in us, because we are in him.
the challenge that the scriptures bring to us is to change the way we think, to move our mindset away from being conformed to the way our world thinks, and to change to agree with who god says we are in christ. agreement with god’s perspective releases us to access “all the potential for catalytic, transformational, impact” that is in us, because we are in him. when we refuse to change our thought processes, we choose to agree with the world, in opposition to christ…
mr hirsch says “what gets in the way (of the potential for catalytic, transformational, impact)is a highly institutionalized and static view of the church and its mission” my perspective is that people - including each of us - are individually responsible. focus on the institution lets the individual off the hook… but the institution is made up of individuals. for sure there is institutionalised persuasive manipulation that masquerades as the church of jesus christ, but we make choices for ourselves, and we will in the end be accountable for the consequences of our choices.
the “benefit” of persecution is that it removes the distractions and forces those choices upon us that we should make in obedience to christ. one of the significant factors is the multiplicity of distractions - we have too much and we want more. a significant distraction is the “western” addiction to information… in effect we are educated beyond the level of our obedience, which has the net effect of saying we are educated to a level of disobedience!
my conclusion is that what gets in the way is personal, rather than simply institutional. institutionalisation is a consequence of the mass of “christians” complicit, with one another in an institution, in a movement of personal disobedience. the institution turns a blind eye to certain sinful behaviour in repayment for the complicity of the masses!
freedom is in christ… in personal connection with christ, and in personal responsibility. the power of the gospel is that it frees us to make choices for ourselves, the spirit empowers us to make that freedom known to others…
i agree with mr hirsch that the power is within as we are within christ… because of our disobedience, external pressure has been necessary to force people to do what we have the option to do by choice…
a celtic son
Great discussion… love it!
More as an aside response to “I’m not sure about formulaic approaches to kingdom thinking”… as you can see from his comment above Alan isn’t going to be talking about a simple mechanistic formula.
If we’re going to use analogies, Al’s descriptions are more like ecology than chemistry (where a + b always make c). In population ecology we describe how complex systems / populations behave… and how for an animal population to grow it must have x,y,z. But it’s more about describing something than controlling it. There is always an element of the sovereign power of God at work in missional movements.
I guess the hope is that as we understand the common elements of all dynamic / explosive movements we can cooperate with the Spirit in prayer and repentance and obedience… and then see what God does next!
Looking forward to the learning journey!
hey Celtic Son, you have got to stop the Mr. Hirsch stuff. No-one calls me that!! You are making me feel very old.
apologies dr hirsch… just didn’t feel comfortable addressing you as “alah”… i take it alan will do?
“respec’”
a celtic son
Alan, I cannot agree with you more in your assessment about the church being institutional and static. Yet in the area I live in I do not see that changing much. We live in a bible belt, highly conservative (evangelical) area. Change in the way we do church is simply not on their radar screen. There is much resistance to change. In the last five years we have been a part of 4 different house churches (all an hour away) with no sense of being missional but rather being very meeting focused. Most of the talk from house church blogs is what do we do when we meet?
We cannot completely ignore externals can we? Even Jesus had to admit that he could not do many miracles in his own home town because of the lack of faith there. There are reasons that poorer countries are experiencing growth and western countries are declining. Jesus warned what materialism would do to us. The church being an institution and static is an external force, is it not?
The question is how does Jesus change the hearts of those in his own hometown? How do we change the hearts of those in our institutional congregations? How does the average person go at this alone?
Here is what I have got on the internet so far.
1- A lot of emerging church people seem to want liturgical services with a lot of icons and candles and the following of the Christian calendar. (attractional model)
2- The house church seems to be lost in a “what do we do at the meetings” mindset. (come to us).
3- Internet blogs seem to be caught up in discussing and rehashing the same old questions. In other words blogging has become an end in itself.
I am simply not interested in any of these avenues. So I get pretty excited about a blog that can move us forward as this one is attempting to do. Neil Cole is one of the few lights that is coming out of this movement because he is not simply sharing an opinion. Michael Frost’s talks in Peterborough, Ontario were extremely powerful (you can go to resonate http://www.resonate.ca/audio/ website to hear them {they take a long time to load so be patient. Also the first one is a short introduction. Scroll down the page and look for part 1 of 7}). The church of the Saviour is a missional church in Washington D.C. that has worked amongst the poor for almost 60 years.
Finally I am convinced more and more we need equipping arms. Ones like Lance Ford and you are starting. Neil Cole’s LTG groups. There is a house church in Sierra Leone that are training people to go out. Gordon Cosby of the Church of the Saviour tells this story: “we thought that if we divided up into small groups this would lead naturally into mission and outreach. But it didn’t happen. Not that it seldom happened, it NEVER happened. We started the “school of Christian living (an equipping arm) and everything changed. A couple of years later we were lax in coming to those nights of equipping and the outreach almost completely stopped. A year later we renewed our commitment to it and we were reaching out again.
Sorry that this is so long.
Wasn’t there many “threat” factors fueling the Methodist movement - Jonathan Edwards work “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” saturating Christian messaging/thought; English government trying to squelch Methodist movement.
Neil Cole’s venture is impressive. I also see Bob Roberts 90 something churches in the last 10 years along with the Hill Country Bible Church of Austin, TX movement initiative of planting 75 churches as promising - but the next 10 years will be telling of these initiatives’ ability to be reproducing and stay in missional/incarnational mode. Beware of the killer B’s! We are addicted to “attractional” behavior.
This blog string has really touched a nerve Alan. I couldn’t help but think of this part of MLK’s Letter From The Birmingham Jail. It could have been written this morning.
“There was a time when the church was very powerful. It was during that period when the early Christians rejoiced when they were deemed worthy to suffer for what they believed. In those days the church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society. Whenever the early Christians entered a town the power structure got disturbed and immediately sought to convict them for being “disturbers of the peace” and “outside agitators.” But they went on with the conviction that they were “a colony of heaven,” and had to obey God rather than man. They were small in number but big in commitment. They were too God-intoxicated to be “astronomically intimidated.” They brought an end to such ancient evils as infanticide and gladiatorial contest. Things are different now. The contemporary church is often a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound. It is so often the arch supporter of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the church’s silent and often vocal sanction of things as they are. But the judgement of God is upon the church as never before. If the church of today does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authentic ring, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. I am meeting young people every day whose disappointment with the church has risen to outright disgust. Maybe again, I have been too optimistic. Is organized religion too inextricably bound to status-quo to save our nation and the world? Maybe I must turn my faith to the inner spiritual church, the church within the church, as the true ecclesia and the hope of the world.”
Celtic Son: I don’t know if you are aware or not, but R. Freedman observed three barriers that need to be overcome of the Marriage & Family Therapy movement was going to get unstuck. The first one was the barrier of “Data vs. Maturity”. He says that this is fueled by our focus on pathology which gives rise to infinite possibilities of exploration and therefore data/information. Maybe if we could get out of the “sin management” (pathology) business in the church, we would have more energy for mission.
All: I, for one, am being changed through this discussion, by the Spirit of God. I can sense His presence as I read your comments. Yes, I am one of those “Pneuma” kind of Christians who believes in the empowering presence. Too much Gordon Fee I guess.
If some of you have been in these types of discussions for a long time, you may forget that for some of us this is like main-lining our drug of choice. I have been talking to myselves (plurality intended) for a bunch of years, it is sure nice to talk with other personalities. I don’t want to sound like an island, I am not. I have a great group of thinker/practitioners around me, but I find this discussion is being extremely catalytic in me.
It is reminding me that I must persevere if I want to see change. I cannot give in to the pressures to become attractional. We are attempting to plant a missional community that centers around a re-oriented life as expressed by life-rhythms. We used the “bells” idea, but switched around the letters to spell “bless”. Our “b” is for “beautify” as we live in a very beautiful, eco-centric, artsy, hippy, earth-worshipping….. sorry, got carried away.
Anyway, thank you for your willingness to engage in dialogue and provoke, not just thought, but action out of people like me!
hi folks,
been ‘lurking’ on this conversation for a while, and am enjoying the passion and experiences of praxis and theory that have been expressed by the correspondents - and the open-ness of expression too.
al, i’m interested in your conclusion ‘that what gets in the way is a highly institutionalized and static view of the church and its mission.’ the big idea i took from ’shaping…’ was the theological model of “christ, mission, church” - in that order. that helped me articulate so much of my prior learning and experience, and helps me make accessible to others how to begin to think about what they’re doing in god’s name.
so much of what we do in the church of england goes like this: we go to church, to worship god, and might do a bit of mission on the side (or not!). its the wrong way around. as a priest in the church of england, i want to do something about rearranging that understanding to the model outlined above.
i can imagine you shaking your head al, and thinking, ‘bro, you just won’t be able to’. and you’re right in a general macro sense, but in a micro sense, there actually is hope i think.
i’m in a situation where, in the next 12 months or thereabouts, we’ll have a very small community of faith who will have left their church building, will sell it, and relocate into the local high street with little idea of what to do, but with a conviction that god wants them there in his name. they’ll have to figure it out on the way. but you see, they will still be a legal part of the institution of the church of england. that’s the thing about institutions like this - they can actually let, and resource, interesting stuff happen on the side. and there is more and more space being given to it.
so, i don’t know whether you plan to address this issue any further, but there are enough people on this side of the pond interested - and i think, desperate enough - to hear what you’d say.
and i think that’s one of the ingredients in the china explosion - being desperate. a sense of ‘holy desperation’. being desperate to know god in his word, but only having one page of scripture to pass around; being desperate to share living hope with others who have given up, but knowing the dangers in sharing it; being desperately gripped by a vision of a fully spiritual life that is lived in all its fulness right here, right now, that simply won’t be silenced.
there’s a desperate ache in the c of e that there’s got to be more to this christian life than what’s being experienced in most of their churches each sunday.
any thoughts?
Frank, Al is not advocating blowing up institutional churches… if they are working well in your bible belt area, well, God bless them… God loves the whole church, not just the radical bits of it. The issue is more that the “institutional attractional church” is unable to get the whole job done of reaching all with the gospel!
So as I see it the challenge is to view those segments of the population who do not connect well with the institutional church with the eyes of a missiologist… what are the core values, the cultural patterns, and the entry points to the gospel for this community? Or for a particular sub-culture within this community? To use the eyes of a missiologist in our local communities… (rather than leaving this discipline to overseas missionaries)… means we need to adapt our practices around the priority of mission. The problem is that the institutional church has captivated our imagination while our Western societies have done fundamental shifts… we need to be a whole lot more thoughtful and creative about our mission. As many of you are already doing… great to hear!!!
Tony, I’m personally involved with a “hybrid” kind of ministry… a pretty average contemporary church that has lots of little missional branches. (eg a church focusing on people with mental illness and addiction issues, a young mums ministry, etc.) Our senior minister likens this to a strawberry patch… more than happy for ministry branches of the church to grow a life of their own like runners off a strawberry plant… and to then keep shooting off new runners from these “plants” that may or may not stay connected with the parent “plant”.
I think we need more diversity of ideas and approaches, not less.
aaah… i feel the wind of the spirit fill my lungs as i breathe in this morning… my thanks to alan for this forum
thanks matt, i am not aware of the rabbi’s work… but it seems like he identifies our fascination with data as a problem too. i find the concept of stuck/unstuck helpful.
i empathise with frank doiron’s frustration in the desire to find mission in the bible belt. he asks “how does Jesus change the hearts of those in his own hometown?” from memory frank i need to ask “DOES Jesus change the hearts of those in his own hometown?” my recollection is that he DOES NOT… that he moves on.
jesus reveals himself and gives people the choice to follow - many choose not to and rather than focus on persuading them he goes on searching for those who will! rather than find a fifth house church an hour away frank, perhaps it is time to consider how you might make a new missional beginning yourself?
like janet i am part of a hybrid. my journey over the last six years has been to establish a small group which grew into a sunday gathering and try to keep it focussed on missional thinking. it requires constant energy, great perseverance, self awareness and vigilance which can only be sustained by personal passion and devotion. the danger is that i get sucked in by the sunday attractional thing and lose focus on the missional - which is truly god’s heart for my community.
there is so much discussion around me about church that assumes the “institution” that i fear for my soul… this blog is a breath of fresh air. thanks tony for your contribution – it is a timely reminder not to see the “institution” as the bogeyman – there are many people within the institution struggling with the same issues and finding authentic ways of expressing themselves.
if this “life” can be maintained then perhaps this type of blog can be developed to become a support network, for practitioners who are feeling like “islands.” it is not as good as skin on skin, face to face discussions… it’s too easy to make wrong assumptions because we lack a shared history/set of values - i’ve already done it a number of times… but this is so much better than what i previously had.
for too long we’ve been getting false weather reports… the people who own the major networks have had their weather reporters tell us that the drought is about to break, so just keep doing the same thing and it will work out… it has been going on so long that there are a significant number of people who no longer believe the weather reporter, people who suspect something else is actually going on…
what we have needed, and are beginning to hear, are smaller localised networks reporting that the drought is a long-term feature and we need to change our lifestyle accordingly… some of us need to be encouraged to buy water and distribute it in our dry area, others travel to small oases in the desert and collect water to return to their immediate family… others are convicted to make a long term commitment to an area and begin the difficult business of digging wells to refresh the whole area…
the weather report is not great, but it’s honest… so i can actually make decisions about how to prepare for the day ahead… though i do also consistently pray to the lord to bring on the rain…
a celtic son
Frank: re the stylaized and static imagination of church. It appears that we have all but completely merged the idea of ‘institution’ with that of the ‘ecclesia.’ So that we can’t seem to separate them anymore–they have become one and the same. The interesting thing is that is where the Chinese church has arrived by the time of Mao’s revolution–a thoroughly institutional imagination/conception of church inhereted largely from the West and bolstered by Chinese reverence for authority and institution. Mao thoroughly and completely obliterates the institution, thus forcing the believers into an ‘adapt or die’ scenario. The marvelous thing is that they adapted, they found ‘The Forgotten Ways” and in the process allowed us to see ourselves in a new way through the light of their story. This is why I believe that all the potencies are already within us. It was within them and they (re)activated it.
I simply have to believe that if we are the people of God, and that the Holy Spirit dwells in us as He has dwelt with his people in every age, that we can awaken our deepest dreamings and stoke the ancient fires again.
I think its happening in the West, but largely under the radar to this point. but it is there!