Blasphemy on sale
Just for a little break from our recent blogathon, I thought I would post something for the bizarre category. In this blog I deliberatedly compare what most Christians would consider distasteful what with they might consider acceptable, even normal, as part of evangelical Christian culture. Compare this with this.
Which is the more offensive? To my mind, the Christian T-Shirt company is far worse than the Velvet Vulva. I really do believe that the surging commodification of Jesus and Christianity (modelled well enough in this website) borders onwhat the bible means by ‘blasphemy’ because it involves a subtle process that in effect trivializes the holy. At the heart of blasphemy is an inversion of the core symbols that re/present the holy to us. In the process of blasphemy, the symbols come to mean precisely the opposite of what they are intended to convey in the first place.
If this is an acceptable defintion, then I think the christian t-shirt company inadvertantly flirts with blasphemy while the ‘velvet vulva’ gets to be just funny in a bizarre kind of way. What do you think?
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Alan,
I hear your point. We can trivialize or even blaspheme God by getting too close with the culture or “inverting” the symbols.
I know that it is kind of en vogue to bash any kind of marketing or the church or of Christian messages, but I’m not so sure about this one. Just as a disclaimer–I’ve never worn a t-shirt like this, and I have had no desire to do so. Not because I think these t-shirts are blasphemous–I just think that they are kind of corny.
I suppose I see these t-shirts as an attempt to simply catch people’s attention by inserting biblical messages or names in unexpected places. They are trying to incarnate the gospel, are they not? The “Spirit” name in the Sprite logo might evoke thoughts that the Spirit is “refreshing”–isn’t this a biblical truth?
I suppose my biggest criticism is that Christians want to use advertising like this as a conversation starter, rather than serving people as a conversation starter. People should ask us, why are you blessing my life, rather than, why are you wearing that t-shirt?
But you know what–the average church member isn’t thinking at all of starting a conversation with a non-believer. So if all church members started wearing corny t-shirts to try to talk with lost people, it would be more than most are doing now.
True James, I suppose I overstate my case (it would not be the first time :-)). And I did say it ‘borders’ on blasphemy. But I really do think that this is the case: its very hard to take Coca Cola Jesus seriously. He has been commodified by association with the image/icon of Coke. How is this a credible witness? The only impression I am left with is that we are trying too hard to market Jesus. Its not going to bring about any converts. “Oh look, Jesus is now a cool Coke sign, I am going to become a Christian!” I can’t see how it works except in the negative. I think it is sincere, but sincerely wrong.
Alan, you mention “Coca Cola Jesus” and how he is commodified by association with the image/icon of Coke. I just had a thought–what if we inverted this concept, and subsumed all of the logos of the world into Christian icons. i.e. a cross. We could nail Coke, BMW, Hope Depot, Polo, etc. to the cross. Or put a giant cross inside of a SUV and ask, “Does the cross fit here?” pointing to the incompatibility of the cross and materialism or safe suburban Christianity.
James, I think you’ve hit on something there! I suspect that should advertisers ever nail a Coke bottle to the cross with the slogan “The Real Thing” emblazoned all over the advert, the very same people who do not see a problem with using their logo to ’sell’ Christianity, would be up in arms!
the problem is that would have to give everything away to earn the right to claim the cross and the name of Jesus. that’s precisely why any attempt to co-opt Jesus to corporate logos is so sinful. They crud up our vision and access to Jesus - blasphemy again.
Hey someone say something appreciative about those bags!! They are original if nothing else.
[...] Whether its that or just weird ideas for Christmas presents - you decide… [...]
Now your just trying to push our buttons AL behave yourself
Very weird and elaborate bags. Would hate to receive one as a kris kringle… As for the Christian tees - sad that there is a perceived need for props like that to tell our stories and engage spiritually. I think it is an attempt to be “relevant” to our culture, but missing genuine Christ-like relevance entirely.
The question I’m left with is:
Alan - how on earth did you find the “Velvet Vulva” site?
While I wouldn’t wear the tee shirts myself, I kinda agree with James - way up there at the top - I mostly think they are worn as a way of trying to engage people in thinking about Christian spirituality - a bit like the fish sticker on the car.
But don’t people do this generally in other ways? Why do people where Jack Daniels tee shirts? Or stick “I Vote Green” stickers on their cars? A thought just occured to me - maybe it also has something to do with self-identity. Wearing your faith on your sleave - literally? DUnno?
Still want to know how you came across that site though!
What about the t-shirts from Tassie Al - What would Jesus Brew?
I wondered how you came across the site too, but was afraid to ask!!!
Yeah Al, give us the low-down on how you found those bags! Definitely the most whack thing I’ve seen in a long time!
At least I’ve solved the Christmas present issue mate!
Does that mean I’m looking forward to a velvet vulva for chrissie mate?
Ok - that sounds really weird - OF COURSE! who wouldn’t want that to look forward to?
I can see those going down well in the workplace as a gift from one colleague to another . . . await the harrassment complaints in 3, 2, 1. . .
errgg. such t-shirt make me feel nauseous and clostophobic.
The handbags, well, genitals are a strange and useless god to have, but at least they are sincere.
I agree with what some of the earlier posts implied that christian brand naming is more about what we do to Christ’s image than what he does to the world. And if people genuinely believe that it is an effective “witnessing” tool, then no wonder the western church is in decline! For gooness sake!
Alan, et al - obviously messaging is huge with ev-angels. Content is key in an information era. I think of the power of icon, symbols, and content together: How many of us has had personally sugar coated “Frosted Flakes” from Tony the Tiger, a Kellogg brand? We know Tony is the Tiger who can show us what we can do! The different cereals in different boxes with their use of icon, symbols, and messages could be silly or ingenious - all this for rice, corn, or wheat! When push comes to shuv, we are mouthpieces of God’s looming judgment on idolatry, no one but his people will trumpet that message and even now few of his people are willing to proclaim in relevant fashion in a message saturated/driven culture.
How’s the price on those things?
I think the desire to belong plays a part in this as well as well as being able to identify those who are “same”. If you can reduce a group set of values into a symbol or concept - you’ve hit the marketing dream.
Who know’s, maybe that’s why i use a mac?
For those who now think I browse the internet looking for exotic porn, actually I came across the site on a friend’s blog. Who know’s where she got it though??
. They are hilarious. I thought they were a joke a first, but actually I think they are serious.
Can’t say I would wear either the T-shirts or the bags.
I remember distinctly in my first year of art school, seeing this guy that played in this old-school punk band wearing this hideous Coke-a-cola T-shirt that said “Jesus Christ”. I was shocked! 1. I always thought this stuff was so embarrassing and reeked of Constantinian-commercialised-consumer-Christian-cheesy-kitschy-Americana. And here was this guy was the bench march for “cool” wearing it. And 2. I had no idea that he was a Christian. In a state of shock I asked him “Are you a Christian?” His answer revealed much to be about the gap between church cultures and the world are sent out to invitationly live the gospel amongst. His answer while laughing at my question, “F%*# that. I just think it’s f*%#in’ hilarious!” …welcome to the pomo mission field and dissonance between the signified and the signifier. This was one of many evens that packed my bags for the journey of sharing the gospel by embodying it… not selling it.
I’ve never liked Christian junk… never done the fish sticker, the Christian slogan tee, the WWJD bracelet, not even a gold cross as jewelery… something in me has always reacted against Christ as a commodity, even when I was quite young.
However, I will play devil’s advocate on this one, because whether you like it or not I think part of adolescence in our society is trying on roles to see how they fit… try out a hairstyle, try out some piercings, try out a Christian tee shirt and see if it gives you chances to talk about what you believe… this is even a chance to test out your beliefs too.
Viewed in this light, I don’t see this kind of experimentation as something terribly bad… like meat offered to idols, I think it’s neutral in itself. It’s not really God on the tee shirt… it’s just cotton and ink.
I’d personally be dragging off to a psychiatrist anyone over about 25 prancing around in a Jesus tee shirt… (they really should get the concept of an invisible kingdom concept by then)… but adolescents can sometimes see the world in concrete, black and white terms. There are worse things for a teenager to do.
Where does this leave the tatooed EC crowd. Wearing a tee-shirt seems to pale into insignificance when you then consider a “spiritual” tat?
Thinking about Christian commercialism gives me another opportunity to rant (though I’m probably a little off the track here).
I popped into Word books on the way to have lunch with a girl I’ve been mentoring on Wednesday… a really talented singer-songwriter. I enquired about a book or resource about Christian creativity… the spirituality of the arts and the creative process etc. hoping to encourage her to exercise her gifts… which haven’t had all that much of a workout lately. (It seems to me the songs of the emerging missional church are yet to be written, and she’s one of those people who could engage brilliantly on this level.)
Not a sodding thing in the store. There were Christian mugs, Christian cards, Christian pictures, Christian videos, shelves of books proving the earth was made 6000 years ago, “Left Behind” paraphenalia, “Footprints” journals, Christian diaries for 2007, Christian diet books, Christian parenting guides, Teen bibles, Every Man’s Battle Bibles, Women’s Spirit-Filled Bibles, Bibles for Vegan left-handed single mums (alright, I made the last one up… everything else is absolutely if bizarrely true)
Why is it there is so much junk in these places and so little stuff of any use? I muttered something about imagination and creativity obviously being of the devil and wandered out. Grrr.
Leave the tats out of this Andrew!
Tats are for life. But I can take you point. but I also have to say that I have a Yahweh tat on my right arm (in Hebrew). and for me it means that my strength is devoted to God. Its my monument to the covenant. Its quite a serious thing, because I never want to take Yahweh’s Name in wain. And I do thinik it is different to tacky T-shirts that rip off some logo.
Don’t get me wrong - I’m fine with tats! But in the spirit of this discussion, I do struggle to see the difference - at least on the broadest scale.
I agree, the brand name rip-offs are tacky, but I think that, generally, no matter how misguided in their approach, many people who would wear one of these are also saying something about who they are and where their committment lies. Maybe the biggest difference between the two, though, is one can go in the wash after you’ve worn it and the other stays put!
I guess I am just wondering if perhaps we are not being a little too hard on the tee shirt wearers, maybe in much the same way as some are hard on tat-sporters?
For the record - I wouldn’t wear the shirt either but I did wear a “fish” lapel pin on my jacket all winter, and a mate of mine, a school chaplain, lit a candle in his office.
my major problem with most christian products is that they lack creativity… mostly they seem to be a poor copy of secular imagery and are unworthy of the being who created all things, and then created us in their image… to be creative
i don’t wear them because i think all too often they represent god as a dork. i’ve been ridiculed by christians for wearing reg mombassa mambo creations… i don’t always agree with his theology, but his shirts have started several conversations, that have led on to discussion about jesus - his ideas can be a bit warped, but he’s never accused of not being creative!
i also think we christians generally get wound up too tight about protecting our god from blasphemous imagery… i reckon he’s pretty capable of lookinjg after themself… that doesn’t mean that there are not times when we should say something, just that it should probably be rarer than it is… and that the spokespeople should have to have some kind of screening, to weed out the raving bigots that so often end up on our tv screens…
we need to be able to laugh at ourselves and not over-react to the “anti” spirit we encounter…
perhaps we would be better served by coming up with ideas that are happenin’ rather than just dissin’ the disgustin’… though searching the net for velvet vulvas has got to suggest that someone spends way too much time surfin’!
maybe the “christians wag” site could print a t-shirt with the single word “propheteering” on it? and maybe the art goddess could be persuaded to support conservative christianity by making a velvet volvo…
viva
a celtic son!
hehehe o Celtic Son. or maybe the Christian site can rip off the velet vulva by making a t-shirt with the prhase “”velvet volvo: drive safe with Jesus”
I entirely agree with the lack of creativity expressed by most Christian T-shirt designs. As for the tas, they can be more prfound in their use of iamgery and symbol. Actually, that was my point. Most tattoos would use symbols to convey what they intend to convey in the first place. The tacky T-shirts don’t.
I’ve been thinking that Al’s and my different reactions to the tacky tees is probably due to the way we’re wired more than anything… Al is prophetically calling us back to a vision of the primal church (where the thought of the first disciples making money from Jesus T-shirts is unfathomable)… to someone like me who was born with “blessed are the peacemakers” invisibly tatooed to my forehead. I have an instinct to look for the kernel of goodness in others and am a little indulgent with the quirks of the very diverse family of Christ. So it’s hard for me to do anything but quietly smile at the 16-year-old in the Jesus shirt… even if I am a little uncomfortable with those “propheteering” from adolescent spirituality. (I like that phrase Celtic son… clever)
case in point…
i just received an email, courtesy of someone adding my address to a christian list, titled “this is not a holiday tree.” attached is a christmas card picture of a little fir tree with bobbles and tinsel, standing outside a house covered in snow…
the author is adamant that;
“It’s not a Hanukkah bush,
It’s not an Allah plant,
It’s not a Holiday hedge.
It’s not a decorated pine tree
It’s a Christmas tree!”
but… it IS a decorated pine tree… why christians would be defensive about a decorated pine tree boggles the imagination…
obviously their point has to do with the pc removal of concepts of “christ” from popular culture in the christmas season… but what a ridiculous image to use to make the case from… did i mention a lack of creative thinking in “christian” concepts before?
so… watch out for 16 years old christians this christmas wearing t-shirts emblazoned with a decorated pine tree with the creatively considered text “this is not a holiday tree”
if the text accompanied an image of a child, sat next to tree stumps in the midst of the remaining debris, following some of the massive deforestation in exploited nations… it might say something more about the things that concern the heart of christ at christmas…
say “cheese!”
a cranky celtic son
Gasp!!! I feel like a child who’s been told Santa isn’t real. You mean pine trees and tinsel aren’t central to our faith!!!? Isn’t there something in the bible about tinsel!!!? Let’s take up arms against those who would blaspheme against the holy trees!!!
my apologies to janet for any residual pain caused by the lancing of the santa myth. when my daughter was about five she revealed a greater capacity for comprehension than we had given her credit for, when she wrote a card for her kindy classmates, hoping they had a good visit from satan… to the chagrin of christian nobility, we decided it was much to early to lance her friends’ bubbles and helped her rewrite her christmas cards!
yes janet, it is difficult to understand that there are people who would blaspheme against the holy trees. all jokes aside; blasphemy is a subject that raises a lot of tension and anger and which we ought to be concerned about, just in case god is not equipped to deal with it themself.
in my research on messianic movements in first century judaea i came across an encounter, in an appropriately significant work of reference. the work has encountered challenges relating to blasphemous potential. this chapter of the work discusses issues from the first century, that may point to the root of some of our confusion in the church today.
the following quotations are taken from the reference work and are attributed to a fledgling first century movement, a movement that may well be a predecessor of the forms of ecclesiastical authority idolised in the church today, and thus hold some keys to our understanding of the differentiation between “ministry” thinking and missional processes.
at a gathering of a small group of people, who are potentially the progenitors of the contemporary church denominational structures, the following points are referenced;
“… people’s front of judea… splitters!!”
“… we are the people’s front of judea”
“… oh i thought we were the popular front?”
ouch!
an amused celtic son
You can be quite funny for an American!
Don’t even get me started on bloody Christmas BS!! Talk about blasphemy! As far as I am concerned, Santa is nothing more than a materialistic pedaphile–total co-option of the Incarnational message of the NT by the evil forces of consumerism praying on children. Santa introduces the innocent to the love of things/products. Man!
Stop me now before I go too far!
hey janet…
i’m not sure that americans actually get monty python!
this celtic son is a product of multinationalism i’m afraid… born near glasgow in scotland, third generation irish on my dad’s side. moved to london at 18, got involved in the seedy side of life and was anti-christ for a number of years. i journeyed to australia in ‘89 as a broke and broken 26 year old, with life spiralling out of control and an adjusted developmental age perhaps a little past puberty…
i encountered christ and was swept up in grace. life spiralled further out of control! my life’s journey since then has been discovering god, discovering who i am in him, shaking off the crap i carry and becoming who he tells me i already am.
i’m settled in sydney and in the last six years, my wife and i with two babies felt called to start a church, in sydney’s southern ‘burbs. we moved into the community, our kids are in school, we love life in this place. god is drawing people to himself and we are blessed to partner with him as he builds his church.
i appreciate the simplicity of some of the facets of celtic christianity. so i chose the pseudonym celtic son… more to protect the integrity of other people whose stories might overlap with mine.
i’m probably as far from the (stereo)typical american as you’re likely to get… but then i’ve met a few americans who are not (stereo)typical… maybe they’d even get the whole python thing.
a celtic son
Hi Allan
I’m with you on the “christian t-shirt” thing, but I must admit I’ve bought a couple “Jesus loves pornstars” - shirts at http://www.xxxchurch.com.
I’ve found they’re great if you want to break some taboos in christian circles.
Another thing: I’ve heard that you’re coming to Copenhagen in January, 2007 with Andrew Jones. We’re looking forward to it
Steffen Boeskov
Steffen. I don’t think all T-shirts using images and ideas fo faith are wrong. Far from it. I think that is a great Tee…I would get one myself because it declares a shocking truth–Jesus actually does love porn stars!! There is no distortion there. I wear a tee (I have it on today in fact) that has an image of Jesus (you know the one with his heart ripped open nad haloes around his head) with the slogan underneath…”let’s dance’. What I like about it is that it uses irony to communicate–it surprises the observer with ancient truths.
Oh, and yes. I will be in Copenhagem (Soren Kierkegaard’s city in Jan). Only I hope its not too cold to enjoy it. Look forward to meeting you.
“For those who now think I browse the internet looking for exotic porn, actually I came across the site on a friend’s blog. Who know’s where she got it though??
. They are hilarious. I thought they were a joke a first, but actually I think they are serious.”
Possibly got it from us deviants in Sydney. We were discussing it the other week though I was the only one game to publish some of it (see http://mattstone.blogs.com/eclectic_itchings/2006/11/the_velvet_vulv.html). And yes this is serious. It would be wise to keep in mind that NeoPaganism / Goddess Spirituality was identified as the fastest growing religion in Australia after the last census. Way faster than Buddhism and Hinduism. Way, way faster than Islam. And off the scale compared to Pentecostalism, our fastest growing Christian denomination. The missionaries out there should be asking themselves why.
Apologies, Celtic son… I don’t know why I thought you were American… and yes, they generally don’t get Monty Python. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Many of the world’s greatest thinkers, artists, etc. emerge from the USA… although the US hasn’t exactly promoted this fact in allowing the “Jerry Springer” show to leave their shores.
One of the mums I know from school is really into the “goddess” stuff. She asked me to go to see a viewing and discussion of a documentary called “the sacred prostitute”, but I told her I probably wouldn’t be able to restrain myself and would embarass her in public! (One of my less incarnational moments, but I was pretty busy at the time). So she was treated to a bit of a rant about how degrading prostitution is to women, something of the history of temple prostitution, etc. etc.
I suspect some of this a reaction to mysogeny… those who have felt disempowered and undervalued taking the “love yourself” in an ungodly direction… finding personal fulfilment not in relationship with the God who loves us, but in elevating oneself to god-head.
hi janet…
no apologies required… i’m not offended, just clarifying a little of my background… it’s interesting to hear a little of your situation - obviously a mother of school age children with a heart for mission with the other parents.
using a pseudonym in the blog environment is prone to misunderstanding. it’s a catch22 for me… i’m personally happy to be known and challenged, however my life story interacts with others. i reckon its unfair of me to reveal others’ stories, which may be related back to them, without their permission(it’s a minute possibility i know but…) i’ve also been aware that i can begin to “use” experiences that involve other people, to justify my actions or my own thinking, people can become statistics instead of people… if that makes sense. so i’ve found that anonymity is required to protect the integrity of the innocent… not me per se!
as i tend to be one who challenges people regarding what we actually DO as missional/incarnational followers of jesus christ, i am likewise challenged to share accounts of my own activism. as my activities almost always involve other people i feel it’s important to protect their anonymity. i’m happy to exchange information by personal email outside of the blog environment though.
in terms of your mission with parents… i do assume a lot! and in respect of my commitment to activism here’s some of the things we’ve done. we have a great developing relationship with our local primary school. we partner with the school in a number of ways that we see as missional. many of the things we do are simple and supportive, but they come from a missional heart.
we run a playgroup on friday mornings in the school hall, which the school promotes in its newsletter and sends local families to. it rose out of us running a transition programme in term four, for kids and families who will be coming to school for the first time in the following year.
we run a youth programme on saturday nights in the hall - the majority of young people are from families that do not attend any local church. it can be hectic and the young people are not always a great represntation of what “church” is perceived to be by the community (i love it!)
we ran a clean-up campaign in the school and filled six skips (industrial waste bins) in one day. we worked alongside staff and parents and ran a kids programme to allow parents to come out for the day and help - many people are still talking about it. we supported the school fete with face painting and lollies and gave all of the proceeds to the school.
i was a bit unhappy with the content of some of the reading materials that my kids brought home, with reference to witchcraft etc. so, rather than complain, we presented a couple of the local primary schools with $1000 to purchase books for their lirary that would be consistent with our family values.
one of the schools was seeking to develop their school discipline and wanted to run a restorative justice programme with terry o’connell (see http://www.realjustice.org) the values are great, so we gave them $1000 to help put it on and a few of us attended too. i recognise that itis not about the church becoming known… it is about the values of our community being changed to more accurately reflect god’s values. we achieve much more by serving than we do by self promotion… it’s a subversive movement to bring about real change across our whole community, not religious change for a chosen few!
we co-ordinate a christmas carols event in the school - we provide pa system and lights and a band to support their programme including their school band, dances and “carols” about santa and rudolph. then i have the opportunity to speak for five minutes - i’m conscious of the overbearing christian preach factor, and try not to be overly religious, but also unapologetic about my faith… it’s a balancing act!
this year we had it last week and i spoke about what australians actually value at christmas (based on stats from last months reader’s digest questionnare.) their results say that less than 10% of aussies say gifts are their highlight, and more than half say it’s about getting together with family and friends. i concluded simply that this is part of god’s purpose in the first case - to get together with his family and friends…
getting back to your post…
unfortunately american exported television doesn’t do american people justice. my preconceptions from the media have often been reinforced by many of the american people i’ve met overseas. howver, on visits to america i have been pleasantly surprised by the people - in the main they have been helpful, hospitable and not the stereotypical loud, overbearing people i had expected.
as far as the development of the “goddess” stuff in australia goes… my perception is that much of it is a consequence of feminism seeking for forgotten ways! personally i believe that feminism is the revolution our culture never had to have, if followers of jesus had treated women as he did, and the church had led the way in equality. the reading of paul’s comments through the lens of misogynist male leadership in the religious institution has led to the denigration of women. it is sad but unsurprising that women have sought other avenues for restoration to a god.
one sad thing is that, in my opinion, feminism has over-reacted and the concept of “sacred prostitute” is a feminist way to exert control over men - not understanding that it comes at a huge cost to the women involved.
in matthew 21 jesus concludes that tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of god before religious people… it was simply a matter of the fact that they believed and repented (literally “changed their minds”) but the religious people didn’t - a warning to all christ followers.
jesus’ approach to the women dragged before him as a consequence of being caught in adultery is beautiful. he doesn’t condemn her and he challenges others about the state of their own judgemental hearts. however he also concludes by addressing the woman directly and saying “go now and leave your life of sin.” it’s clear he has not condemned her, but nor does he want the woman to remain in a situation that degrades her womanhood.
i believe that the major fault in limiting women in leadership roles in the church is related to teaching that equates headship and leadership as if they were the same thing - which biblically they are not. headship is a relational position of service to the family, leadership is a gift for administration of the body.
headship is a character requirement for leadership to be biblical, BUT the person in leadership does not have to be the one in the position of headship! there are too many positional “leaders” in the church, based on the misunderstanding that their relational role in headship qualifies them for leadership - but they don’t have the gift of leadership!i could go on, but i suspect i’m preaching to the converted!
i’d encourage you not to waste your energy on reaction to misogeny, but to find ways to take the goddess believers on a journey to who they are in christ… but then you already know that
the rambling celtic son
The cover of a Tony Campolo book looks like this:
We have met the enemy, and they were Partly Right.
I resonate with your analysis… I think the goddess movement is “partly right” in rediscovering the value of womanhood and the sacredness of sexuality… the problem is it honors the woman as goddess, not the Creator as the one who thought of sex and womanhood in the first place. And part of the impetus for this movement is that the western world (and the church) was dominated by patriachy and a dualism in relation to sex. (spirit good, body bad).
Anyway, as you say, one can waffle on about theory endlessly… the point is to get involved, be relational, and try not to jump to judgment as I did with the sacred prostitute movie.
Our church is more traditional (a “hybrid”) but is very engaged with the local school by donating our children’s minister as a chaplain one day a week, and doing mentoring through kids hope. Many of the church parents are also involved in school committees, so there are many links happening.
the enemy is so smart that they are always partly right… therein lies the challenge AND the opportunity. i have learned to seek out what is right in other people’s thinking and begin there…
“what that person/movie/incident says is right in this respect AND i think we can take it even further than that…”
i see paul do that at mars hill, and have discovered that it is actually a much more effective way to open up discussion, than enlightening people that i’m convinced they’re on their way to burn for eternity!
when i begin to hear about chaplaincy and kid’s hope in schools, when i hear of parents on school committees and “hybrid” churches impacting their local community, my breathing deepens, my heart swells and i am proud to be partnered in the good news with such people…
thanks for the good news… blessya
a celtic son
I think it’s called “Socratic evangelism”… start on the common ground and begin a dialogue. Actually, a friend of mine has written an essay about this very style you describe… I might try to track it down.
thanks janet…
socrates was a very clever fellow - a dialogical genius… also a very good football player
beannachd dia dhuit
a celtic son
Hi GUys
Just had to chip in here.
I reckon if Campolo had his time over he would retitle his book.
Lets face it other faiths are NOT the enemy! (even if they are partly right)
I love the stuff he writes and teaches, but this is a dodgy title if ever I have heard one.
hey hamo…
i don’t assume that people of other faiths are the ENEMY… God loves all people, so must we
i do believe that there is spiritual opposition to the truth, that there are principalities and powers in a spiritual realm. those spiritual agents that have a capacity to blind people to truth, to keep people in bondage…
those spiritual agencies ARE the enemy and, in my experience, they USE people who spout partial truths, half truths and lies in the pursuit of their goal… which is basically keeping people in bondage. Jesus came to set captives free - in all aspects of life, including the spiritual - he came to be truth, and he calls us to be like him…
the ekklesia is about calling people out of bondage into freedom - releasing people from the lies, from the myriad of untruths we believe about ourselves, to be free to become who we were truly created to be. our dominant model of church is nothing like that, we presently call people from one form of bondage into another! six day misery into sunday best… it is another lie!
i’ve never read tony campolo’s book to be honest and if he sees certain people as the enemy because of what they believe then i agree with you about it being a dodgy title… if however, he sees a spiritual force, that influences people against truth, as the enemy i’d have to agree with the title…
this whole post started over the concept of blasphemy - what you consider blasphemous depends on who you believe God to be… and consequently what or who you believe is an enemy. the americans have a term, i think might be appropriate, when we set our sights on PEOPLE as the enemy, for whatever reason - they call it “friendly fire!” but it is no less deadly…
a celtic son
I can’t seem to find the book on my shelves anymore, but from memory it was about “isms” not religion… communism, humanism etc.
But even if it WAS about other religions… there are overlaps between what other religions teach and Christianity… if we believe Christianity is the truth, in these areas at least they must be partly right!
Sometimes I do wonder what people gain from gaining from Jesus and His message materialistically! I’ll never sell a T shirt promoting Him nor will I write a book (I’m not that good) but I still apreciate the books.
Keep stirring the pot Alan, we need to be stirred before we burn the hot chocolate.
On second thought - let’s just serve and without expecting anything in return (certain profits or motives)let’s just tell people we did it because Jesus loves them and so do we.
Al & others,
I’m not going to pretend I have read the whole 50 responses on this blog word for word but loving the meaty discussion. I wrote a blog a while back which I called “over marketed and under influenced”. Just because a message is “sent out” through whatever medium it doesn’t mean communication has occured until their is confimration from another party that info is recieved.
I feel it’s the same with these T-shirt’s, aside from the fact they are crazy cheesy ppl wear these things because they earnestly believe they are doing evangelism by doing so.
Aside from the fact that simply wearing a T-shirt is a strange method for evangelism (terrible word in itself) has anyone ever noticed how many ppl actually care little about what is written on their own shirt or others. I wear “hot cross culture” t-shirts (same guy who made Al’s “let’s dance shirt” http://www.hotcrossculture.com) as a personal statement of what I stand for and do hope someone else will get something out of it, BUT I don’t wear it out with eyes wide open just waiting for someone to say “how do I become a Chrisitan, I want to know that I have seen your shirt”? (although not to put that out of HS’s reach).
Al,
good point. i made a recent trip to a popular Christian book store and was horrified at the marketing of Jesus. He would be turning in His grave (lucky he doesn’t have one). Jesus is not a commodity or something for us to flog. HE is not to be a label emblazoned on a tshirt.
i can undertand the temptation to wear them as a converstation starter but do we really need them JEsus says that people will know we are his disciples, not by how we look, or the lothes we wear or stickers we put on our cars, but we are know by our love. our undying commitment to lay our lives down and empty ourselves for others.
i can only see those t-shirts and similarly the stickers etc as an affront to the underground, subversive nature of Jesus. and if they are used to promote our faith, ifear they will have the adverse effect. They are corny, lame and paint an incorrect picture of JEsus even if their slogans are theoligically correct. The medium is the message.
i don’t like the t-shirts, i would rather wear a velvet vulva hat.
(joke)
peace out