Bubblegum for your soul

I recently watched the R.E.M. video Shiny Happy People and I couldn’t help thinking that it reminded me of worship in a local church that I attended recently. Actually it was not worship, it was more like a sing-along. You know, that postive, middle-of-the-road kind of music that fails to really stir the spirit and move the heart: instead it promotes an inane sense of happy, spiritual, indolence.–kinda like bubblegum for the soul. Chew on this.

December 14, 2006 | Filed Under curious, worship |

Comments

35 Responses to “Bubblegum for your soul”

Christina on December 14th, 2006 7:38 pm

hmm, the body language in the clip is uncannily familiar…
Alan Hirsch on December 14th, 2006 9:57 pm

Yes, I thought so too. A little disconcerting really.
celtic son on December 15th, 2006 12:50 am

yeah… bring back the good old days that we’ve forgotten…bring back the pipe organ and properly respectful dour expressions… why is it that karaoke church has just never caught on…

a shiny happy celtic son?
Pete on December 15th, 2006 6:35 am

I did a bit of research to see if I could find out what they were saying in the song

Aparently the lead singer hates the song and it was excluded from REM’s best of album

It was voted one of the woosiest songs of all time according to wikipedia but it gets better

Here is what I found here http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1518

“The title and chorus are based on a Chinese propaganda poster. The slogan “Shiny happy people holding hands” is used ironically - the song was released in 1991, 2 years after the Tiananmen Square uprising when the Chinese government clamped down on student demonstrators, killing hundreds of them.”

Hmmmm I can say I have felt the pressure to be a shiny happy person while the demands of church work and life were killing me

Funny how art imitates life
Pete on December 15th, 2006 6:40 am

Ohh yeah its probably no wonder church is considered to be a bit woosy by our communitys
Alan Hirsch on December 15th, 2006 9:31 am

Wow Pete! This gives it a whole new level of meaning. I sensed the irony in the song (that was clear enough) but set against the Tiananmen uprising it takes it to a whole new level. The strange thing is that when we (the church) sing songs like this, we lack any sense of irony. We take our happy songs straight.
celtic son on December 15th, 2006 10:38 am

the “church” can get so busy straightening out the world and their problems that we look in the mirror and immediately forget what we look like… james does suggest that is a wee bit of a problem - like people hearing the word and not doing what it says… “shiny, happy people oh oh…”

to my way of thinking the tiananmen square protest should bear some symbolism for the church. it was about a minority of people, standing against oppression of the majority, by an ugly little man in a red suit and his minions… “shiny, happy people oh oh…”

ekklessia ought to recognise there is an ugly opposing force keeping people blinded and in bondage and we partner with truth in setting people free… “shiny, happy people oh oh…”

unfortunately at this time the church has got confused - they are more concerned that the fat ugly guy oppressing the church is santa! “shiny, happy people oh oh…”

i’m sure somewhere i’ve heard that irony sharpens irony

rusty, cranky celtic son!

p.s. is it just me of does michael stipe look much more like a shiny, happy people back then than he does now?
Janet on December 15th, 2006 8:19 pm

Bah, humbug, you’re all a pack of Scrooges. Woe is us… Let’s sing nothing but artsy laments and sit about in sackcloth.

Come on guys… I’d be the first to say I have well and truly overdosed on happy puerile songs and lyrics with dodgy theology, hideous grammar, and nonsensical meanings. I’d be the first to say we need to discover how to lament together, and to create space in worship for contemplation.

But let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. When David danced before the Lord with all his might God approved… I believe it was a joyous activity, that it expressed his happiness. Sure we need to lament sometime, but surely it’s OK to let loose and express joy… to celebrate… to dance… to sing “happy” music… isn’t there a time for both?

Ecclesiastes 3:4 Sums this up for me:

There is a time to cry
And a time to laugh
There is a time to be sad
And a time to dance
Pete on December 16th, 2006 8:02 am

Janet perhaps its not the “happy” part we have a problem with but the “shiny” part you know the kind of sheen that glossy plastic gives off when the sun shines on it

This sheen becomes hard to cope with when you fill a home with exclusivly hard glossy plastic furnature rather than a well balanced decor that ofsets the sterilty the plastic with some timber, stone and fabric

I’ll stop here before I take the metaphore too far
Janet on December 16th, 2006 10:20 am

I have a problem with plastic… with falseness of any kind.

I have a problem with a solid diet of bubblegum music… it gives a totally wrong impression of the life of discipleship… and life in general for that matter.

But there’s a time for celebration… even for helping others to feel happy.

Yes, the “contemporary” institutional church has gone way too far in this direction… if you find yourself singing bubblegum songs on Good Friday you’re in a church has lost the plot… but I wouldn’t want to go so far in the other direction that the only music of the church is solemn dirges. Let’s keep the light and shade, and know the place for both.
Alan Hirsch on December 16th, 2006 10:55 am

Ahhh Jan our resident happy optimist. she always corrects me on this stuff.

My concerns are not with the idea of celebration (I think we should learn to really let go…I am a Pentie-on-assignment after all!) It is with the fake promises of happiness that sets people up for sadness inplied in so much Christina Aguilera style ‘praiae and worship’. Its just plain wrong.

Having said that, I recognise the need in human language for simple inarticulate but rich language of intimacy. “Goo-goo” language doesn’t mean much intellectually, but is profoundly rich in human intimacy. I have no probs with that. But songs of Shiny Happy People genre makes for spiritual dysfunction.
Janet on December 16th, 2006 11:45 am

Al, I strongly suspect you correctly discerned the spirit of the church you visited…

I think a “virus” of the contemporary institutional church goes something like this… you can have your Jesus and your happy comfortable prosperous lifestyle too… Jesus wants you to have it all!!!!

Bull. We need reminders of the cross, of discipleship, of being a living sacrifice. But there is mysterious joy in discipleship too… if we lose our life we find it. We have to somehow hold both sides of the paradox in our corporate life… not always at the same time, but some of the time.
Christina on December 16th, 2006 12:46 pm

I think it is the “supersize me” flavour that sometimes permeates ecclesia that jars us spiritually. It is not whether the gatherings are happy or melancholic, celebratory or lamenting (not that you see the latter often), but the subtle or at times overt promotion of following Jesus being about living a bigger, brighter, happier, richer life.
Alan Hirsch on December 16th, 2006 3:11 pm

Spot on Christina. And I do think (as has often been noted) there is a big difference between joy and happiness.

Hear C.S. Lewis (brilliant as usual).
“All joy (as distinct from mere pleasure, still more amusement) emphasises our pilgrim status; always reminds, beckons, and awakens, desire. Our best havings are wantings.”
Janet on December 17th, 2006 7:35 pm

I think this is a rich conversation.

Alan Roxburg (The Sky is Falling?) suggests that SOME of what is going on in the emerging church (in North America at least) is a reaction against the institutional church. If the institutional church sings bright happy clappy songs and gives simple sermons, the emerging church lights candles in the dark and sets up haunting mood music and reads esoteric poetry. I don’t think this should be taken as a generalisation, but there may be a grain of truth in it.

So a cautionary note for those experimenting with new forms of church that they do not automatically ban all expressions of worship, practice or organisation that resemble the church they have left (or copy it slavishly). I think when seeking to engage in incarnational mission you need as many tools in your kitbag as possible… then decide what is most appropriate for the emerging community.

That might sound rambly… what I’m trying to say is there may be a place for “happy, simple, feelgood” music SOMETIMES in corporate worship… provided it’s not the only element of your musical diet. I don’t think it can be dismissed outright.

Helping people to feel happy is not ALWAYS the right thing to do… sometimes the loving thing to do is to tell a truth that will make someone feel worse. But it’s not always a bad thing to do either… some people live difficult lives, and to bring them a touch of happiness in corporate worship may be a bright spot in a dark week. I wouldn’t want to think we get so P.C. puritanical that we poo-poo “happy” experiences because esoteric joy is so much better… or start thinking that solemn worship is always better than bright happy worship. Maybe, maybe not… it depends what you’re trying to do. The Puritans reacted against the excesses of the Catholic church, but became legalistic in the process… let’s hold this lightly and thoughtfully.

Speaking of joy…

I have read C.S. Lewis’s “Surprised by Joy” and (at the risk of being metaphorically stoned to death, eminent thinker and Christian apologist that he was) I wasn’t entirely convinced by his suggestion that joy is always some kind of longing for the eternal. As someone with a streak of sanguine in my personality, sometimes when I am overwhelmed by the Spirit I experience a joy that feels awfully close to intense happiness. I know the joy he describes… as a more bubbly personality than the great professor I experience other types of joy too.

Interested in what others think about this.
RePete on December 17th, 2006 11:16 pm

I was Pete but I think I’ll use RePete from now on

Great point about not reaction against the institutional church by avoiding all practises used by them and we need to deliberatly wrestle with what styles are appropriate for the culture being missioned

I geuss my thoughts on the discussion were not about an upbeat style of music but rather my own experience of the expectation to be happy all the time when in church and as a result we were a bunch of slowly dieing peaple with sunday grins on our faces which were often grimaces but the poster in the foyer represented happy peaple so we tried to comply

I geuss this is the corelation we are drawing with the chinese propaganda poster
celtic son on December 18th, 2006 1:32 am

sláinte…

i tend to agree with janet’s voice of reason as a pathway through the bubblegum - there are times to be happy and times to be sad, times to be shiny and times to be dull… the challenge is to be true to ourselves…

the (over)reaction to preceding models has concerned me. in some situations it seems like certain ideas, which actually lack credibility in themselves, receive credit just because they oppose the previous dominant model… and that’s not a smart way to operate. a bad idea is bad - even if it’s trendy!

so much of what we’re trying to discuss also seems to get lost in translation… some are discussing church in broad terms and others speak about their sunday gathering as church…

it also never ceases to amaze me how wound up people can get when the subject involves music… we’re all different!

blessya,

a celtic son
Janet on December 18th, 2006 8:09 am

I think all these voices are valid, and are picking up a culture of “happy conformity” in some churches instead of open authenticity.

It’s true what you say about music Celtic Son… if you want to upset everyone in an established church, change the music! Why are we so attached to this?

Some emerging groups won’t have music in their worship at all I suspect… but others will… it seems to me a mission to New Agers might involve candles and Enya music, to motorheads Christian Heavy Metal, to middle class youth… well maybe light bubblegum pop /rock!

For the main, let’s not over-worry about musical styles… in disciple-making there are bigger fish to fry.
celtic son on December 18th, 2006 11:01 am

the enduring power of mindless tradition, and the influence of society’s cult of “self,” within the body continues to astound me… a culture of “happy conformity” is not simply something imposed, there is also complicity by a majority, who often prefer the safety and anonymity of conformity, over the risks of openness and authenticity.

when i hear voices raised over concern about the music - or the candles or the decor or the coffee or whatever - (including catching the sound of my own voice at times!) mostly what i’m hearing are voices concerned with elements of their own comfort - people focussed on “self” - the antithesis of missional thinking.

i don’t personally like aspects of our gathering, my formative years were in inner city living in glasgow and london, now i’m planted in one of the southernmost suburbs of sydney. suburbia was never my aim, but this is where i believe i’ve been led… it requires effort.

the nature of our sunday services has evolved in efforts to connect with the people who come, and the suburban culture we live in… what we are, almost 7 years after beginning, only remotely resembles what i thought we’d look like. however the weekly gathering is only one aspect of church, so i’m not overly concerned about some of those things. the difference we make from a missional perspective in our community is far more significant.

yesterday, in the school hall we meet in, we had a service in which 25 children - haltingly and prompted by stage whispers - acted out the accounts of the birth of jesus. it was noisy, chaotic and all over the place… i loved it… in a sense, although it was a “performance,” it was more real than our sanitised, homogenised, pastorised milk-fed services can be at times! we were given birthday cake and juice, as we were led by the children’s workers, in reflecting also on the purpose of christ’s life, in the lord’s supper.

the hall is rectangular with a stage on one of the short sides. we deliberately choose not to use the stage for a number of reasons - set up that way it looks and feels more like a traditional church service, which brings with it all the connotations of the separation of clergy and laity, people at the back are a long way away and it can be difficult to engage effectively etc etc etc. so most weeks we set up to face one of the long walls - which involves more effort - then there is less distance to the front. as there are a number of different people involved in sharing etc each week it’s less disruptive and also easier for impromptu contributions to be heard across the gathering.

to facilitate yesterdays kids-led dramatic service we turned things around for our kids to use the stage. they used the opening curtains, entered from the wings and were prompted from the side.

after the service the dominant comments, from several of the older people, were nothing to do with the children or the content of the drama… but to persuade me that we should always “do church” in that orientation. i take it as a heads up, that there is a lot more work to do in helping people to engage in missional thinking

while you’re right janet, we need not “over-worry about musical styles” what we do need to note is that arguing about it is a symptom of a deeper, sinister and more significant illness that we do need to treat… i think jesus includes it as he refers to his followers picking up our cross daily to follow him and paul invariably describes it in terms relating to dying to self.

living with a concern for others is a core issue of missional thinking… when we hear self-centred arguments (particularly when we’re voicing them ourselves) it’s probable that we need to examine what shape our hearts are in. that doesn’t mean that there is no place for us to analyse and develop what we do, but that we ought to be much more aware of what we say about others.

when we have concerns it’s much healthier to consider how we can contribute constructively to the situation - perhaps taking discussion to others about what they’re doing first - rather than criticising from a distance… the bigger fish that each of us needs to fry is staring back at us from the mirror…

i don’t easily dismiss tradition either - just the mindless application of patterns of nehaviour that are not effective, or relevant. there are lessons to be learned from history, in the words of one of the world’s great poets…

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us

frae a celtic son
Janet on December 19th, 2006 6:08 am

Great post Celtic son… I think it gets to the heart of a whole range of issues on this thread… a struggle for authenticity, for missional effectiveness… and a reflection on what’s really driving us: the heart issues behind the issues.
Alan Hirsch on December 19th, 2006 11:24 am

You guys still chewing? Good bubblegum eh?
Janet on December 19th, 2006 7:48 pm

Turned out to be more like a fine wine… a variety of notes and flavours! Great material to chew over.
Greg the Explorer on December 21st, 2006 8:36 am

I loved this article by Mike Frost posted over at ForgeWA. I agree with Mike whole heartedly when he calls for our singing and our worship music to reflect the revolutinoar nature of our faith

Contemporary worship avoids danger and stumps for gentleness, sentimentality and respectability. Where is the danger? Where is the responsibility? So many great revolutions have been birthed through the songs their revolutionaries sang. The French revolutionaries sang in 1789 outside the Bastille. The Bolsheviks sang their radical songs in St Petersburg. The American civil rights movement sang of liberty and righteousness in Alabama. The anti-Marcos revolutionaries sang through the streets of Manila. In South Africa, under apartheid, Christmas carols were banned because they evoked a revolutionary yearning for freedom and peace. That’s how powerful the music of revolution can be. The earliest Christians knew something of the revolutionary effect of their beliefs and their worship reflected this. They were not seeking to overthrow the state, but they were celebrating the establishment of another kingdom at odds with the beliefs and values of the Roman Empire.

Why can’t we today sing equally daring songs? While secular artists like Xavier Rudd, John Butler, Ben Harper and U2 are writing radical songs about global justice, Aboriginal reconciliation, fair trade and the elimination of poverty, we’re singing silly loves to Jesus. But ours is the most dramatic story of justice, peace, love and grace.

I can’t write songs (I sometimes really wished I could), but I call on our worship song writers to rediscover the spirit of the earliest Christian, a spirit often embodied by the church in the Two Thirds World. Some years ago I was in Kenya and found myself part of a Swahili-language worship service. A man was chosen to step forward and start singing a cappella. His first song choice was booed by the women who insisted he choose another. When finally he struck on a song acceptable to the congregation, he sang a phrase that was then echoed by everyone else. This rhythm of him singing and us repeating continued until the room was alive with movement, music and worship. At times he simply improvised by singing a single note that others joined in on. It was a beautiful and powerful expression of love for God. I couldn’t sing as well as those Kenyans, but I sang my lungs out that day. It was communal, worshipful, creedal, simple and Spirit-led.

Geoff Bullock, formerly worship pastor at Hill$ong (The till on the hill) wrote an article entitled Beyond Self Centred Worship where he suggests that many Christians actually worship worship instead of worshipping God,

Have you ever wondered how Paul and Silas could sing praises in a Philippian gaol after being stripped, flogged and clamped in the stocks? Or how Jesus could sing a hymn on the eve of his arrest, knowing everything that was about to happen to him? Or how Paul could describe worship with the spine-tingling phrase ‘living sacrifice’?

It was because their worship was not based on what they liked. It was based on who they loved.

There is an explosion of worship in the church today. The buzz word is ‘contemporary’ and the aim is to ‘enter into God’s presence’ and enjoy a sense of closeness with him. The music, the setting, the lyrics must all help create a fulfilling worship ‘experience’.

But I am absolutely convinced that it’s not the worship that God wants us to enjoy. It’s him…

…

There’s another way in which we worship worship instead of worshipping God. Let me come at it by a round-about route.

Consider two ways of understanding why the church exists. The first is that it exists to equip the saints for the work of ministry. So part of our teaching and worship must be aimed at equipping the saints.

But there is a danger in this first perspective. It could lead us to think that people are in a church so that the church can release their individual gifts and ministries. This is back-to-front. People are actually in a church with their gifts to release the ministry of the church.

It’s far more important to know where you are called than what you are called to do.

Let’s get real about our worship and stop singing silly love songs - let’s be revolutionary - let’s sing songs about revolution - if indeed you feel the need to sing songs at all!
Greg the Explorer on December 21st, 2006 8:39 am

Just so we’re straight I don;t mean for us not to sing of our love for Jesus - however a substantial amount of the songs that pass for worship songs these days are bubble gum, Jesus is my boyfriend type songs - you know the kind, take a love song from the pop charts and replace the words baby with Jesus (or take a popular Christian song and replace the name of Jesus with m my love, baby, angel etc) and you get the idea.

Our love for God is fickle, and human, God’s love for us is powerful, eternal and is the only thing that will never fade - we really can;t be singin songs like

Jesus, lover of my soul (although that bit is true)
Jesus I will never let you go
that is most likely not true because each day or at least manytimes in our lives we do let go of Jesus, we are self-centred and self seeking and, well just plain human.

Don’t get me wrong, we want to hang on to Jesus for ever, we do love Jesus - but really, we are not in love with Jesus - I love my mum and dad..well actually that’s another long story…let’s say most of us love our parents but we don’t have a romantic love for them - and we’d feel creapy singing sentimental love songs to them - and yet day in and day out in churches all around the world we are fed a diet of sentimental passive bubble gum love songs to Jesus when we are called to sing psalms and spiritual songs

Ephesians 5:18-20 (New International Version)

18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I appreciate the pentecostal passion for worship that is missing in the majority of mainline churches today - but worship is more than songs - and when we do sing songs I really don’t think they should be sentimental love songs -
celtic son on December 21st, 2006 1:04 pm

Hey Greg the Explorer…

Your post raises a number of points, but before I respond let me acknowledge a personal frustration that might fire up my writing a bit - so that you know this is not just a personal thing, but it’s my agenda, I don’t want it to be a hidden one and I’m happy to own it. I recognise that this provokes me at times to push a bit too hard and to even come across as being downright acrimonious, ungracious and cranky… that’s just because at times I am! When I’m posting I’m quite prepared for people to push back just as hard… to point out my shortcomings and possible rudeness, and I’m even prepared to apologise (possibly I should now, in advance!) so that we can get on with the task at hand – working together, loving one another, to see God’s Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven…

I have found a lot of stuff titled “post-modernism” to simply be an excuse for whinging and complaining, and generally lacking in creativity - it is one thing to be able to point to existing problems and to pull them down, it’s another to work creatively towards solutions. There has definitely been a necessity for a deconstruction period, but frankly I believe that if we claim to be created in the image of a creative God we ought to be creative, rather than just critical. For me deconstruction without reconstruction is simply destruction.

Followers of Jesus Christ have a unique opportunity to lead the way in cutural reconstruction, if we take our creativity seriously. I’m tired of being part of a bunch of whingers, who simply point to things others do “wrong” and complain, instead of applying our energy and resources to construct things as they should be. I agree that we need to tear down the walls of institutionalisation, viva la revolution. But it is simply the beginning; the bricks we remove should be used for building pathways and bridges -like they were originally intended - not just for throwing at one another or building bunkers to protect ourselves from the world!

One of the things I appreciate about Al’s work is that it is constructive; it seeks to find ways to help us to build, indeed to restore the ways of the original crafts… that’s the perspective I’m coming from… In that vein, while I appreciate your questions, and I suspect the spirit of what you’ve written comes from frustration at the vast volume of what we sing being “silly love songs,” nonetheless my challenge to you and all who are frustrated by what is… is to apply your energy to what could be… I am continually trying to work out my own frustrations, often failing.

My personal attempts at reconstruction at times involves first deconstructing the sacred/secular walls by performing so-called “secular” songs in a so-called “religious” context – which sometimes upsets people, or wearing shirts with thought-provoking statements (not just cheesy, hallmarkish “christian” bubblegum. Some people just didn’t catch the irony of performing the REM anthem “Losing my religion,” or why I would perform a version of “I still haven’t found what I’m looking for” when mostly we’re claiming that we have! My personal theme, is the constant replaying in my head of that powerful motivational theme, “I get knocked down, but I get up again…” from an avowedly anti Christian Chumbawamba! Fortunately(?) I have progressed so that I no longer require large quantities of alcohol to assist me in falling down! People don’t comprehend the wearing of Mambo shirts which reveal Reg Mombassa’s weird theology or T-shirts which declare “Natural Born Sinner” or “Jesus is coming… look busy.” Controversy followed Jesus, I just want to find ways to be like Him!

In this thread about bubblegum for the soul, it concerns me that there’s a limited framework for “worship.” So much of what we’re discussing limits “worship” to singing songs! As the gathering of the called out ones is not the total sum of what “church” means, so singing songs is but a small part of our worship…

Mike Frost’s comments might be helpful to some extent, but they are all related to other cultures, not to where we are at today - singing a single note for an extended period of time obviously has power in a Kenyan setting - does that make it helpful for us? You quote Mike saying “The earliest Christians knew something of the revolutionary effect of their beliefs and their worship reflected this.” What’s the basis for this statement, what form did their worship take, what were their songs… answers to that might be more helpful in pointing the way for songwriters to write revolutionary songs… if that is what’s required.

And if you want to sing radical songs about global justice, aboriginal reconciliation, fair trade and the elimination of poverty why are you not singing the songs that Xavier Rudd, John Butler, Ben Harper and U2 are writing. I don’t find this separation of secular and spiritual in my version of the Bible – we are called to be salt and light IN the world, set apart in the motivation of our hearts, not the location of our lives. Why are we waiting for “sanctified” songs – sing the songs that move your spirit to worship God. A month or so ago as we gathered a girl got up to pray and said “frankly Christian songs bore the hell out of me…” someone comically responded, “is that not their purpose!”

Romans 11 teaches about being ingrafted into God - “caught up” into the Godhead in Christ (see post on “To know God is to change…” thread on this blog.) The importance of that is, Romans 12 then calls us, as a consequence of our ingrafting, to surrender our whole lives as a sacrifice to God. To do that Paul encourages us to choose to change our thinking (the literal definition of “repent”) away from the small-minded pettiness we call thinking, the rubbish we’ve lived under in our human experience, and to choose to renew our minds and live by God’s values - THAT IS WORSHIP. To worship God is to obey…

True worshippers, Jesus said, worship God in spirit and in truth - worship is about who we are, the attitude of our hearts, how we live our lives 24/7. Missional thinking is simply the process of choosing to think beyond our own comfort and be motivated by the heart of our missional God - that is a deliberate act of worship.

That said… our music and singing is an obvious way in which we express worship when we gather… so also is the presentation of teaching in our gatherings, public presentation of the gospel message, creative arts used in expression of our focus on God etc etc etc… Music and singing are an important part of the gathering of believers, but they’ve got a disproportionately large part of our focus – primarily, I suspect, because of the influence of materialism and the sale of materials as a commodity.

Mike Frost may be right that there is a place for revolutionary songs - however, notice that the verb in all of your examples is in the past tense - “sang” - revolutionary movements are not still singing revolutionary songs after the revolution is over! I’m not convinced that the example of someone else’s revolution is helpful to us in and of itself; we need some constructive thinking about how it applies in our context. Mike notes, “In South Africa, under apartheid, Christmas Carols were banned because they evoked a revolutionary yearning for freedom and peace.” It would be ridiculous to conclude then, that we should sing Christmas Carols all year round as an act of revolution - you cannot remove the revolution from its context! Janet pointed out earlier that there is a time and place for everything - revolutionary songs may have a place at times, but they are not the answer in and of themselves…

Quoting Geoff bullock is also an interesting choice, I would consider that he has been a major contributor to the early concepts of worship bubblegum in this nation, if not globally. I checked out the article you quote at; http://www.pastornet.net.au/renewal/journal6/bullock.html
It is an article quoted as being written in February 1995; while he was still the worship pastor at Hills CLC… some of the sections not quoted are also interesting… I’m not suggesting that disqualifies Geoff Bullock from making comment, simply that we have a responsibility to consider the context of people’s comments and how they apply to our situation now. These comments were written in a certain context almost 12 years ago and I’m not sure how accurately they reflect what Mr Bullock would say today, or how pertinent they are to this discussion.

Your point that we are “not in love with Jesus” is interesting too… I really don’t believe that the concept of separating “love” and “in love” is consistent with any Biblical understanding. To my way of thinking, it is a dualist concept based on emotion, not necessarily truth, and abused by people who seek to justify making decisions based on how they feel, rather than on values. I think you have to define what you mean by being “not in love with Jesus” When I speak of being in love with Jesus, it is primarily intended to be a description of the level of passion and commitment I choose to express to Him. I love my parents and I love my motorbike, I love opportunities to do adventurous things and I love life… but my love of God exceeds any of that and the only human experience I could remotely compare it to, is being in love with my wife…

If we wanted to consider the concept positionally, I’d point to the fact that the apostle John says “Whoever lives in love, lives in God, and God in him. ” Paul tells us we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, and we are baptised into Christ. In Christ we are ingrafted, we are drawn into the relationship in the Godhead - so… we are literally “in God through Christ” – which you could also state as “in love with Jesus.” So really I am also positionally in love with Jesus…

Quoting Eph 5:18-20 , my observation would be that there is discussion about what Paul means by “hymns and spiritual songs.” However, there is no dispute about what he means by Psalms… so… how many of the Psalms are songs that call God’s people to revolution and how many are “silly love songs”?

Janet pointed out earlier in this thread that there is a time for everything… she noted that David danced gleefully before the Lord, which was acceptable worship and encouraged us not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think there are some awful songs used in Christian gatherings and called “worship,” and there are some great songs defined as “secular” and never used in Christian gatherings… I also think that there are some love songs to God that are meaningful for periods and lose meaning, there are some great old hymns with great words – but the tunes are not pleasant to my ears. There are some songs I like and some songs I dislike… because of my commitment to Christian community there are some songs I sing with my church family that I don’t really like, but most others do…

My question Greg the Explorer is what are you doing that is constructive in this realm, what can you share to encourage the rest of us to move forward, in a more powerful and positive direction? What are you Exploring?

beannachd dia dhuit

a celtic son
Alan Hirsch on December 21st, 2006 1:34 pm

Woweee. Now them are long blogs. Goo meaty discussion guys.
Greg the Explorer on December 21st, 2006 4:53 pm

Gees, Celtic - very hard push indeed - but one that’s got me thinking. I’ve just got back to my clomputer and I’m about to knock off so I’ll get back to this later - but I will respond. You have made some very good points.
Janet on December 21st, 2006 8:03 pm

Great post Celtic Son… I really appreciate your passion for Christ and His mission, and your willingness to tease out ideas, rather than letting untested generalisations slip by (or worse, unconstructive criticism.) You keep us all on our toes!
celtic son on December 22nd, 2006 12:37 am

Hey Janet…

I am passionate because He was first pasionate about me… literally I was an addicted personality on my way to loserdom… I had a Damascus Road experience 17 years ago, when He plucked me out of my despair… but I see it and sense it as if it was yesterday. It lives with me and it lives in me and it burns in me…

I want all people to see the fullness of the Lord’s glory and reflect that in our lives…

Also… I process my thinking by writing… I had the craps with blogging and had given up on it… I came across Al’s new blog via a link and something leapt within me… there is life here… I’m not interested in being right… in fact, sometimes I push the envelope in the hope that it will provoke people to push back…

I’m interested in growth… not just my growth independently, but the growth of Christ’s community… when my thinking is wrong, bring it to me… let me grow out from my own inadequacy and let’s change the world, beginning by changing ourselves, as we become who God always meant us to be…

I had an opportunity this evening, at a mutual friends 40th, to talk about my initial encounter with Christ, for the first time with a friend I’ve known for almost 17 years. He didn’t fall on His knees to worship God, but over the loud music he nodded a lot… that makes me smile… and I hope it helps my friend Bill as he seeks to connect with God.

I appreciate your encouragement… and I believe that, in Christ, together we can partner with God in changing history…

beannachd dia dhuit

a celtic son
celtic son on December 22nd, 2006 12:55 am

Hey y’all…

the initial thought that’s been buggin me is… what the hell was Alan Hirsch doing watching “Shiny, happy people” in the first place?

Nearly as intriguing as discovering velvet vulvas!!

Some people are just weird… now where is that mirror?

Chill

a celtic son
Greg the Explorer on December 22nd, 2006 10:09 am

ONe thing at a time

Mike Frost may be right that there is a place for revolutionary songs - however, notice that the verb in all of your examples is in the past tense - “sang” - revolutionary movements are not still singing revolutionary songs after the revolution is over!

The revolutoin isn;t over by a long shot - it hasn’t even really started in the world of church and worship - we’re still sensing a disquiet that what we have so slavishly and willingly declared is the full exteent of worship is merely a small part and really not as important as we thin it is.

Worship is important- but what is the real worship that God requires of us - ut to live justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God.

http://theoblog.com/2006/07/how_to_worship_with_your_life.php

What does the Lord require of us, when it comes to worship? Why do we come to church? Why do we pray? Why do we read the Word? All these activities make up what might be called the life of piety. This sort of worship, though, is only external. The Lord has told us several times that vain repetitions, extravagant ritual and external worship in general is not what He is chiefly concerned with. External worship is merely a representative of-and support for-real worship.

Internal, true worship is a life of charity. It is repenting, shunning evil, being useful, and doing good works for our neighbors. This doesn’t mean external ritual doesn’t matter. External worship is like clothing: we need it, but it can be changed. The only requirement is that it serve internal worship. Proper external worship is whatever ritual we choose that inspires, instructs and prepares us so that we may make our daily lives into continual, true worship, which is the life of charity.

the poisnt of my previous post was to say that if we do have to sing (and I actually don’t think we need to most of the time - even thougfh I am a musician)they should be songs that mean something and aren;t Jesus is my boyfrisnd type of songs that make me cringe when I sing them.

I agree that the use of 1995 vintage Geoff Bullock could be miles from where he is now - however it was arouin=d the time of writing this article that he actually strarted changin the way he felt about the worship he was leading others in - which can be evidenced by his use of the phrase worshipping worship.

What am I doing that is constructive in this realm, what can you share to encourage the rest of us to move forward, in a more powerful and positive direction? What are you Exploring?

Well I am exploring the use of meditations and contemplation and experiential worship with out community - art as worship - painting our reflections on a piece of music or a psalm or a reading - responding to God in action and committment rather than emotive songs that make us feel good while we sing them and then we leave the gathering… and …nothing changes
celtic son on December 22nd, 2006 2:32 pm

Hey Greg the Explorer…

my brain always seems to be trying to squeeze out a dozen thoughts all at the same time… not always helpful for effective communication… one thing at a time is much more effective… I always seem to be in too much of a rush!

I totally agree that the revolution Jesus started is far from over… my point - like Janet’s earlier - was just that there are seasons and that, in the big picture, revolutionary songs - like revolutions themselves - are also seasonal in nature. I don’t assume for a minute that I’ve got it right - the more I consider your post the more I think it might well be a time to have a fresh sense of revolution in our journey in Christ. If you come across helpful resources please post them on Al’s blog…

And like you my concern has been that we have a limited framework for “worship.” You’re absolutely right about God’s requirement’s related through Micah… worship in it’s rawest form is simply obeying God - which ascribes worth to Him because we value what He says.

I’m with you too that we don’t always have to sing… and that what we sing should be meaningful. You are right - there are some songs that have absolutely nothing to add to our gatherings and should never be sung at all. At the same time we need to recognise that a lot in this area is personal, and we need to be careful that what is meaningless to us, is not something meaningful to another in our community, before disposing of it or choosing not to play it…

You’re also right that Geoff Bullock’s comment about worshipping worship may still be pertinent… I’m just not sure how true that statement is in general, and who it is true of… Our attitude in worship is really a heart motivation issue and not something that’s easily judged of others… Geoff Bullock’s point is easy to say and it’s emotive… my point was just to question whether it adds any value to our discussion?

The avenues you’re exploring sound exciting and challenging… I’m interested in shaking things up in our gatherings a little, blowing away a few of the habit-formed cobwebs - so I’m interested in how others, who are doing things a bit differently, facilitate what they do… do you have a website or are there other sites you’ve found that help?

Do you have a set venue for your events, do you have to set up much in advance? Do you prepare much for meditative and contemplative gatherings -do you have alternative opportunities/facilities for children? Do you facilitate the “art as worship” concepts in small groups or in a larger setting? How much preparation do you put into it…

It’s not just singing that leaves people unchanged after a time of gathering… the frustration I find is that sharing the Lord’s supper, preaching, serving hospitality, music, vision… all these elements can be applied in a gathering and people still seem unchanged. It’s a bit like fast food - you’re hungry an hour later and can’t remember what it was that you ate before! What things have you done in gatherings, that you found to be effective in motivating ongoing change in people after they leave the gathering?

beannachd dia dhuit

an exploring celtic son
Janet on December 22nd, 2006 3:52 pm

Just another thought to throw into the mix… I do talk to people who say “I just have a simple faith” (and when you try to talk to them in depth, you realise that’s true!) For many of them their form of Christianity is something of a package deal… they have trouble distinguishing between their experience of Jesus and the experience of their church, and don’t have high level education or critical skills that help them do this.

Just a speculation here… could teaching like Mike Frost’s prove to be causing little ones to stumble? Might criticism of a church’s tradition feel like an attack on a person’s whole faith? What if a person has a heartfelt and simple response to “love songs to Jesus” that God is in fact pleased by? Should we really attack that?

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be asking hard questions at a leadership level… I’m just toying with the idea that maybe criticism of someone’s preferences in worship might not be the best battle to pick.

I really enjoy listening to Mike Frost myself… but I’m throwing up the idea that his teaching may sound like… or even be… an over-reaction to the established church. (as Roxburg notes, his feeling is that some parts of the emerging church are more characterised by what they are against than what they are for).

Because I work at a denominational level rather than having primary energy at the local level I’ll confess I feel like a bit of an armchair academic in writing this. I really appreciate Celtic Son’s strongly grounded questions… I hope you can bear with my “thinking out loud” about some of these issues.
celtic son on December 22nd, 2006 5:53 pm

Hi Janet…

I think what you’re thinking is important… I see each forum as a bridge over troubled waters, and we need to be able to gauge the weight of truth that the current bridge we find ourselves on can bear - before we put too much weight on it and break the bridge! We need to exercise some self-control and not fall prey to the temptation to display our own knowledge, at the expense of other people’s faith.

I’ve taken liberties on this blog that I don’t elsewhere - precisely because it is Al Hirsch’s blog and that sets the benchmark… if it was Mike Frost’s it would be a similar benchmark, but if, for example, it was a suburban community church blog then their focus would probably be at a different place and the benchmark would then be different. The problem with a blog though - and I forget it at times - is that anyone can join in and view!

I agree with the Roxburgh sentiment you express… being against the old ways is easy, when you don’t have the requirement to come up with alternatives. We’d do well to remember that the traditional ways we are prone to criticise now, were probably the radical ways of a former generation, and one day our radicalism could be predictable religion!

I reckon discussion about worship preference is an ok topic at a leadership level, provided it is a leadership level forum and that the bridge can bear the weight… I’ve raised my concerns about some of these issues being spoken out at an annual Youth festival - not because the issues are not true… but the young people do not have the authority or opportunity to change the problems that they are exposed to - I don’t believe the bridge can bear the weight. I’ve suggested a parallel leadership conference or reconsider the festival’s purpose!

The question that remains then, is how far should we take these threads, on a blog that can readily be accessed by anyone?

Any thoughts anyone… Al?

a concerned celtic son
Janet on December 22nd, 2006 8:54 pm

I agree that this is precisely the forum for such discussion, as those participating are largely working at a leadership level… I second the motion that having a “lash out” at the local church in a youth forum is completely inappropriate… I don’t know if you’ve read James Fowler’s work on “Stages of Faith”, but teenagers do tend to accept faith as mediated by their community holus-bolus… and may reject it holus-bolus too if it’s found wanting. It requires a level of intellectual sophistication to be able to tease out these issues… to separate authentic faith in Christ from the faith mediated by a community… which many young adults can begin to do… but many older adults NEVER develop this capacity… hence my question mark over making the little ones stumble (I for one would never want to be cast into the sea with a millstone around my neck!)