adaptibility and order
In reading Jacques Ellul recently, I came across this gem of ecclesial wisdom…
“No doubt some will reply that God is not a God of disorder, incoherence, or arbitrariness, but a God of order. Of course he is. Unfortunately the whole of the Old Testament shows us that God’s order is not that which we conceive and desire. God’s order is not organization and institution (cf. the difference between judges and kings). It is not the same in every time and place. It is not a matter of repetition and habit. On the contrary, it resides in the fact that it constantly posits something new, a new beginning. Our God is a God of beginnings. There is in him no redundancy or circularity. Thus, if his church wants to be faithful to his revelation, it will be completely mobile, fluid, renascent, bubbling, creative, inventive, adventurous, and imaginative. It will never be perennial, and can never be organized or institutionalized. If the gates of death are not going to prevail against it, this is not because it is a good, solid, well organized fortress, but because it is alive; it is Life that is, as mobile, changing, and surprising as life. If it becomes a powerful fortified organization, it is because death has prevailed.” — Jacques Ellul, The Subversion of Christianity
This is close to what I wish to convey in TFW when I talk about agility or missional fitness. And it lines up with the quote wonderful from Elizabeth O’Conner (HT:Frank Dorian) about the church always experimenting with its forms.
“We never have expected to hit upon that final stable structure. This is important for a church to understand, for when it starts to be the church it will be constantly be adventuring out into places where there are no tried and tested ways. If the church in our day has few prophetic voices above the noise of the street, perhaps in large part it is because the pioneering spirit has become foreign to it. It shows little willingness to explore new ways. Where it does it has often been called an experiment. We would say the church of Christ is never an experiment, but where that church is true to it’s mission it will be experimenting, pioneering, blazing new paths, seeking how to speak the reconciling words of God to it’s own age.” It cannot do this if it is held captive by the structures of another day.” (Elizabeth O’Connor….Call to Commitment)
Here is the church that advances, against which the gates of hell will not prevail.
Comments
41 Responses to “adaptibility and order”
Leave a Reply
The Books
Affiliates
Recent Blog Entries
Recent Comments
-
the reason for god
- Amanda said: Wow, looks like an... the last thing to convert…is the wallet
- Richard Clarke said: The version I heard had...
- Andrew Park said: Money on a different...
- Andrew said: Relates directly to...
- Dan Lowe said: You know, if this was a...
- Amanda said: hehe, it's funny because...
- Lucy J said: Kinda reminds me of a...
- Eric said: The story goes that... the role of theology in faith
- Ed Magee said: thanks Janet, intersting...
- Janet said: "Are people looking for...
I love what you’re articulating here Alan. The cliched “God of order” line has never quite sat right with me, and this goes a long way towards describing why. And so often, keeping things “organised”, “orderly” and “nice” have become great excuses for being exclusionist and not trying new things.
By the way, The Church of Our Savior in Washington is now known as Jubilee Ministries. that is where Elizabeth o’Connor ministerd. Marvelous church…really great.
I can happily live with a God of order, although as you say Alan, His order is not ours. We too often try to box God in and expect Him to work to human rules, whereas His order may appear to us to be disordered.
For me the paradox is that the many different streams of the Church push their own feelings about a God of order, resulting not in disorder, but discord instead!
everyone say it with me…messy is good, messy is good, messy is good…we WILL survive the mess, it’s all good. Now smile big, slick up your back so the crap slides right off and get ready to get messy.
Thanks, Alan, UK and Mak…I’m so tired of the “God of order” rhetoric as a smokescreen for power and control “discord”…
Mak, you crack me up!
(BTW, no pun intended at all)
Yeah, many sins of control lie behind the claim to ‘things done decently and in order.’ Meaning, the way I don’t like it. If the Holy spirit is present, I am sure things will be orderley, but not in the way that we ordinarily intend.
“Decently and in order” appears to have been written in the context of a very chaotic primitive church… suggesting the Corinthians take turns and listen to one another isn’t analogous to institutional control.
I wonder if “order” can be likened to the behaviour of electrons… or atoms in a liquid… or the behaviour of an ecosystem. Complete freedom and unpredictability on an individual scale actually translates to predictability on a grand scale (for individual electrons, in the behaviour of atoms, for individual atoms, in the behaviour of liquids, for individual organisms, in the dynamic stability of ecosystems.
Perhaps if individuals and church cells are free to do as the Spirit leads, there’ll be order on a grand scale and diversity on the micro level.
I wonder why they don’t see mutually submitted cooperation as infinitely more orderly than some form of coersion/hierarchy? Actually, I don’t really wonder…back to the seeing but not seeing and hearing but not hearing that Jesus had to put up with.
And, as you’ve said so often, Alan–God actually became a human and lived here for a good 33 years and was not recognized…because he came and lived and was Messiah, but “not in the way that we ordinarily intend.”
I, too, prefer the Holy Spirit’s order over any human order, any day!
Well, Janet…we were on at the same time, again
Amen, sister!
Go girls! Great stuff.
hey, for once the ladies are dominating the comments of a prominent blogger. WOOHOO!!!!
Alan - - like I tell my 5 year old when she tells me I’m silly “yes, yes I am” hehe
oh yeah, I forgot - - really good thoughts ladies. I love the “order of nature” type metaphors….makes much more sense that that would be what God intended more so than the CEO order system
Actualy I think women understand this chaordic stuff in a much more personal and intuitive way than men. No wonder the girls are leading the charge here.
“Chaos is an order we do not understand yet…Order is a chaos we put into logic later on…in my opinion chaos and order have a lot in common.”
Hmm; what if we let the church go with less organizational and systems limits and encourage individual responsibility. Is what would look like chaos to us have a “Godly order”? If Jesus is the vine and His Father the gardener can we trust Him to oversee a church that is released to His care? Other than the Holy Spirit and the Word of God as our guide how much more structure or engineering do we need to add to the church?
Alan…is there a chance I could get your personal email? I have a projet I am working on that I would like to talk to you about.
Thus, if his church wants to be faithful to his revelation, it will be completely mobile, fluid, renascent, bubbling, creative, inventive, adventurous, and imaginative.
These words have an exciting ring to them. The lack of creativity is one of the most dominant characteristics of the church. I suppose the fact that it is institutional greatly contributes to this lack of imagination, lack of inventiveness and creativity….. I find it quite ironic that many who are rather creative, imaginative and inventive and so on (in other things) are very resisitant to change in the church…… They like things the way they are…..
I think a lot of that has to do with the paradigm itself. The hegemony of heirarchy creates a mind set that limits creativity. What is needed is a new paradigm all together that creates a different dynamic to thought and expression.
Some how people compartmentalize there thinking and creativity is expressed in certain aspects of their lives and seems to be off limits in other areas of their lives
There is no time for creativity in the Attractional mode - were too busy planning everyone’s summer or the big Sunday Event!
How did Jesus and the early church or China make it without submitting operational plans or reports?
Here we have a change to learn from ’80s management theory — Chris Argyris and his Immaturity-Maturity Continuum were derived from his observations concerning the effect of management practices on individual behavior and personal growth at work.
Nutshell: keeping people immature is built into the very nature of the formal organization. Individuals are fitted to the job at hand (used as commodity) rather than assigning jobs that fit the individuals (creative participant).
This is what the IC has done to limit the creativity of the image-bearers, particularly in the clergy/laity situation!
Argyris’ continuum says that maturing behavior of individuals, from infancy to adulthood, looks like this:
passive toward active
dependence toward independence/interdependence
limited ways to behave toward greater variety
erratic/shallow interests toward deeper/stronger interests
short time perspective toward long time (past/future)
subordinate position toward equal/superordinate
unaware of self toward awareness and self-control
Until the church is willing to allow the messiness that goes with growing up, creativity and maturity toward Christlikeness will continue to be stunted.
Speaking of the messiness of maturity…I’m working with my three young boys weeding the yard today!!! But they are learning out there in the dirt….
Blessings,
seeingkalos…tee hee, bro
Peggy, that is very profound and helpful. Thanks.
Who knew that the ole Organizational Management major would come in so very handy after all these years…and in such a “eucatastrophic” manner
I’m sure it is just another thing that being a parent has brought into focus for me. Children certainly are a blessing from the Lord….
Maybe another way of pointing to the same thing is to observe that the Bible was written by many different authors over a period of several thousand years. It’s a collection of books that church councils eventually decided to anthologize and officially sanction as The Bible. So you wouldn’t expect anything written and compiled in that manner to show the orderliness of a work written by one individual.
“Actualy I think women understand this chaordic stuff in a much more personal and intuitive way than men. ”
“I’m sure it is just another thing that being a parent has brought into focus for me. Children certainly are a blessing from the Lord….”
I wonder if the utter chaos of a having and breastfeeding a baby… then the endless choices and ambiguity involved in attempting to parent children into mature and decent and healthy human beings… and attempting to keep a family in some kind of healthy equilibrium… does provide some insight into “spiritual parenting”.
mmmmm, I should try that sometime.
Hullo-o-o…
I’m wondering if the “women understand this chaordic stuff in a much more personal and intuitive way than men,” is a function of design or of culture? Is it an argument for a complementarian approach to gender differentiation in life, or is understanding chaos something that men (as a generalisation) have been taught not to allow to be personal or intuitive?
Personally, it depends what the weather is like and which way the wind is blowing… I slide along a continuum between chaos and order, admittedly predominantly on the chaotic end… with the occasional fervent burst of order. Jacques Ellul seems to be observing, with suitable post-modern sensibility, that the response the subject requires is not an either/or but a both/and.
To walk by faith and not by sight requires an appreciation of the chaotic… by definition faith requires us to believe something that our natural eyesight does not perceive. To not give up meeting together - whatever form the meeting takes - requires some agreement of order… The promoting of one over the other is one element of denominational differentiation… the balance of order and chaos is the place where the organic lives and grows… God is BOTH the God of order AND the God of disorder… blessed be the name of the Lord.
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Alan, Janet and CS, I would say that the deepest understandings I have of God’s character and his activity have come to me late in life…just as being a parent came to me late in life. Those who have been father/mother will have an insight into the heart of God that is difficult to understand otherwise. The thrill of victory…the agony of defeat…
It is definitely a both/and thing, CS–the order of house and home and chores and rituals bring stability to children…and are the foundation from which children are able to push back in order to take the risks that creativity demands. Back to the pruning of the plant bringing forth increased growth. Sometimes I prune, sometimes I am pruned…
But I am very much aware that my limitations as injured/broken/human mother have made the order that “should” be stabilizing my children’s environment much less than they need or deserve. So our house must endure more chaos that I would wish on anyone. Ah, but in the midst of this heartbreaking chaos, God, the loving Father, speaks to me of other kinds of stability that can be brought to bear and “make up for” my lack.
And to that I hold…that God does not abandon me, or my husband and children, to the chaos that is our life…but speaks out of that chaos words of faith and hope…for that better perspective which allows contentment in the midst of deprivation.
Perfect order, as humans tend to see it, is such an illusion. The sooner we let it go and embrace the give and take required to grow up, the better we will be able to help our children grow up…and even help other people’s children grow up…and, in the process, grow up ourselves! How often I am grateful to those who have stood in the gap left by my inability.
Wow…too much philosophical wax dripping…off to cleaning the kitchen, that’ll snap me out of it!
Be blessed, all!
The longing for ‘perfect order’ leads to a very mechanistic view of the world and I think lends itself to the control freakish aspect in human nature. It is interesting that much science fiction explores the age long antithesis of organism v. machine. The machines always represents a side of ourselves–that apect given to control and anal retention. The organic introduces the tangental open-endedness that is so characteristic of human history. The two are always competing for our allegiance. Cf. The Matrix for example.
Alan - saw that you were online . . . don’t know how else to connect. Met you in Long Beach this past Jan. at the Organic Church Conf. I am doing a pilot with the Navigators by invitation of the pres. . . . . similar to the B2G mode. Would love to connect. You are coming to the west in June???? Sorry this doesn’t jive with your post.
Peggy, CS, Alan -
I kid you not - had a meeting today with someone reaching a specific ethnic group and this person has it all planned out - after some attempts to engage in relationship to bait & switch into Alpha for 10 weeks then bait & switch into a “discipleship” study for 30 weeks and then move on. I could not get over the planning and controlling of lives this person was determining for complex image bearers of God who they hadn’t even met!
I tried (a very poor attempt) explaining/challenging this view - it did not go over to well - any thoughts? How do we begin to shift thinking that presumes planning for people to get them into our programs to planning how we can enter peoples’ lives to hang with them?
As much as it may shock all of you…my first inclination (which I would not act on, I assure you) would be to grab them by the collar with both hands, look straight in their eyes, and say calmly, with as much conviction as I could muster: SNAP OUT OF IT!
Then I would cry out to God and ask the Holy Spirit to do two things: 1) work in my heart so that I would do and say only what he would have me do or say and 2) work in their heart so that they would be open to the voice of the Spirit.
And then, as CS said so beautifully in another place, I would test in my heart/mind the strength of the bridge which I had built relationally with that person. And I would speak as much truth, in tremendous amounts of lovingkindness, as that bridge will bear…probably asking questions to draw out where the motivation for the plans come from and what the goal was and how authentic relationships would be fostered with those willing to “take the bait” so that they would not feel like so much cattle being herded…
Certainly, I have already said these prayers on both your behalves…and someone else here will have much more experience and wisdom than I, my brother…I served on a pastoral leadership team (I use the word loosely) where the majority of members felt that it wasn’t appropriate for us to spend time fostering authentic relationships with each other–we were professional associates. I was too stunned to laugh or cry or respond at all…and it was not many more months before they decided they didn’t really need a Community Life Pastor anymore. Too personal…too vulnerable…too real.
I bet Janet would have something helpful to say, seeingkalos…
Persevere…God will absolutely provide the wisdom you need to be his messenger in ways that the message will be heard…if they have ears that will hear.
Be blessed.
“I bet Janet would have something helpful to say, seeingkalos…”
What pressure!!!!
In actual fact, in the pressure of the moment, I would probably look dumbstruck… perhaps quizzical… and say nothing. With a bit of luck, this might elicit: “So what do you think?”, which would actually be a good opportunity to ask a few questions.
But in the cool of the moment when one can write and reflect, a few things come to mind.
We actually can’t change anyone else… only God can! I think it’s really important to get this into our hearts and souls… and to love those who are on a different page from us as brothers and sisters. We do need to love people as they are, not as we’d like them to be.
It’s often good to be aware of what is going on within us and what buttons are being pushed, and do a bit of reflecting about this before we act. A tip I’ve learned from rearing children… breathe first, think, be aware of what you’re feeling, get in control of what your feeling, consider the other person’s point of view and capacity to respond… then act. (With practice, that doesn’t take as long as it sounds!)
God in His immense grace actually sometimes uses us just as we are, naive though that may be. I recall myself as an 18 year old roaming around university wearing sandwich boards advertising a speaker for a week of mission. Cringeworthy really… did God in His grace use me then? I think He probably did, miracle be. God might even use “Mr. Insensitivity” planning to sign up recruits for Jesus. At least he’s trying to do mission, and has a heart for this, which is not a bad start!
It reminds me of the scripture from Mark 9
:
38″Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39″Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
OK… so now you’ve done all this “inner work”, what do you do next?
From an educational perspective, people usually change slowly, and new ideas have to be incorporated with what they already know for them to have really “learned” anything. So where do you start to challenge this?
I think there’s a lot of power in good questions. Look at Jesus, the Master Teacher… He used questions really, really well.
But what questions?
That’s a bit intuitive, hopefully Spirit led, because it depends on the personality / learning style of the person and their theological leanings.
If someone is from the charismatic or evangelical end of the spectrum: “Where is room for the Holy Spirit in your plan?” (asked sincerely but graciously) might open up the can of worms to new learning.
Or if they have a scrap of understanding about cross cultural mission, one could try: “Do you know any Christian leaders from that ethnic group you could talk with first? There might be some cultural factors that you should consider before you start.” (and pray they might actually do this and gain a bit of humility to learn).
Or… I don’t know, I’ll throw to others. What are some “good questions?”
No guarantees this will work of course.
Reminds me of the silly (but true) joke:
Q “How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?”
A “Only one… but the light bulb has to want to change”
Great discussion/comment thread, thanks specially to Peggy for mentioning Immaturity-Maturity continuum which helped sort another discussion!
But how does the church find a balance between the chaos of being able to respond creatively, innovatively and ‘enter people’s lives’ and the need for many people who come to the church to be held within a very stable situation as they try to bring some order and stability into their chaotically disordered and very troubled lives. Much of the work of the Salvation Army, for example, with homeless and addicted people is focussed on bringing order into chaos and on helping to generate stability. In that situation, how does a church organisation also express in fluid, innovative and creative ways? I completely agree with what seeingkalos says about how you can’t impose programmes on people, but there are also some paradoxes here.
Blessings for Easter/Pesach everyone!
Janet, Janet…there is no true pressure in blogdom! That is the great thing about this space! You always have time to reflect
and you came down right where I figured you would. Thanks for stepping up to the plate, sister.
I absolutely agree that we cannot change others. Every time we want someone else to change is an opportunity for us ask the Holy Spirit if we change ourselves. I have said in other places that frequently we try to do the Holy Spirit’s job…and that is always a recipe for disaster!
Along with your stop, breathe and respond exercise from parenting…and your terrific questions, I will add one more: What does this “child” (of God!) need. What do THEY need in this moment in order to embrace the hard work of growing up into the next thing God has for them?…not what do I want them to do.
This question goes not only to the well-intentioned brother who has mapped out the next three years of folks he hasn’t even met. But also to anyone we are called to approach, whether it is with God’s offer of adoption–or whether it is a brother or sister whom God has placed in our path for both of our benefit and for his glory.
And, Eleanor, I am happy the I/M continuum was helpful to you…I find it handy continually (no pun intended
)!
My suggestion for finding balance is asking that same question for each constituent: what do they need? And remember that this is not what they want or their perception of their need. What do they need? What is their most basic need? What need is so great that they cannot even hear a word we say until it is met? This is a question worth pondering. And it takes the “heat” out of any crisis and returns the focus outward and away from frustration in the moment.
This is asking the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth of the situation(s). The truth will not arbitrarily sacrifice one need for another. It will, however, frequently offer an opportunity for one to submit their desire in order for the best interest of the other to be served.
And, of course, we must keep remembering that “one size doesn’t fit all.” This is, in my experience, one of the most difficult lessons for the IC and the extractional/attractional methodology. Nobody wants to hear this word…because it means that we must be as diverse in our mission as the true needs of those we are called to serve.
But it is precisely this chaos that calls forth the “mother of invention” creativity from the diversity of gifts with which the Holy Spirit has equipped the saints for the work of ministry.
Brothers and sisters…there is no easy answer. It is always going to be challenging. God help us if we stifle growth by organizing our way out of chaos instead of working through the mess to resolutions that bring glory to God.
Be blessed, all.
Thank you my dear sisters - I am recharged and re-inspired!
Some more good question:
“What would it mean to love (x ethnic group) as Christ loved the church? What would that look like? What would Jesus do if the Father sent him to reach (x ethnic group)?”
Peggy, you’re lovely.
My sister raised 4 children (plus a foster daughter for 7 years) in a very chaotic looking household, and had strings of people live with her as she was involved in providing emergency accomodation…
Think lego, toys, discarded socks, cut up bits of paper, glitter… think rather disorganised bedtimes and people dropping in and out all the time…
She did the important things well… she did love and prayer.
They’re all great young adults now… one works for Fusion (Christian ministry), another is a children’s ministry intern in her church, another is involved in voluntary youth ministry, another is involved in children’s ministry aiming to be a pastor… they all have a wonderful heart for God and others.
Look… I know there are those freakishly organised women whose house is immaculate, makeup is done, dinner is prepared and the children are all lined up for homeschooling by 9.00 am… God bless them and all, but you’d have to be some kind of control freak.
I’d like to be organised too, but I’m not, and that’s OK.
Eleanor… you’re reminded me that most humans need a lot of stability to be healthy… it’s difficult to find inner peace when you don’t know where you’ll be sleeping for the night, you don’t know where your next meal is coming from, you don’t have stable (or any) employment, and you don’t have any stable relationships. People rarely “bloom” in total chaos.
Organisations need stability too… even organisations of two like marriage!
I think the reason this blog emphasises change is because institutions tend to resist change, and the churches where most of us had our spiritual formation tend to maintain traditions… even when the traditions have become a block to effective mission.
You’re right this is paradoxical… my minister used to say “Jesus disturbed the comfortable and comforted the disturbed”… which is not a bad guideline as when something needs stabilizing and when something needs destabilizing!
Jacques Ellul, Harvie Conn and Herman Bavinck on Change…
I have come across three quotes recently that speak of the need for change in the way we do church and ministry and these have me doing some thinking. I was going to write some more of my own thoughts…
Bless you, Janet…I know in my heart that these boys will do great things for the Kingdom…
I like your minister’s saying. I have a favorite one of my own — which you may have heard before (isn’t memory the first thing to go?
)
We need enough order to foster authentic relationships and enough chaos to foster creativity and growth.
This is the paradox and it is a difficult one to embrace…and so we will all take turns reminding each other, right?
It is a privilege to have encouraged you, my brother, seekingkalos. God’s mercy–his chesed–for his children never fails!
Be blessed.
After almost 3 years of an undefined dissatisfaction with “church” as I have known it and a foray into the literature of the house church movement, I find hope in what I am hearing and now reading. I have encountered an inertia when I talk with Christians about issues of discipleship/growing up in the Lord. As I am reading about the missional church, I am beginning to think that without the other-centered focus, there will never be any impetus for a life of dependence upon the Lord except perhaps in the midst of personal crises. Thanks for those who contribute to this kind of thinking and reflection.
Hey, Andrew…welcome to the glorious chaos!
I don’t know what other threads you’ve read on this site, but what you describe as your circumstance reminds me of the current “attractional v. missional debate” thread.
Be encouraged…and welcome to the journey!
Hullo-o-o
I don’t get time to contribute enough, but when I visit the blog - even just to touch nase and read the input of others I am soooooooo blessed. I have certain oblique thoughts at times like the necessity of women in leadership and teaching…without the vital contribution that has been made by the women on this thread the discussion would be missing so much richness, and would be lacking a HUGE perspective of the Fathe’s heart for relationship and relational maturity.
There is such great wisdom, grace and mercy in the crew who blog on TFW… that it is like dropping into respite for a few moments - thank you all who contribute to the openness and healthy input in this community.
Slainte
A Celtic Son
GROUP HUG!