the place of third places
I think in the West third places are absolutely vital apect of mission in Western (and every other) contexts. For those who don’t know the jargon, the first place is our homes, the second place is our work environments, and the third place is our preferred social environment. It is where you hang out when you have time to hang out. The problem for us in the West is that the first place (home) is primarily defined by our concepts of the nuclear family. The home is our fortress from the onslaughts of the world around about us. It can be a place of mission but in most cases it is severely limited because most of us do not see the family as an extended, or open, family as in ancient Mediterranean cultures of the Bible. The second place (work) is very formalized and guarded by roles you have to play if you are to get on with others and is also therefore very limited. The third place however, is a wonderful place where you can engage with people on their own turf. But as Neil Cole says, you have to be willing to sit in the smoking section if you want to do mission in our contexts. It’s a great way to get us out of our cloistered holy zones and take Jesus to where the people are. I actually think it should be our primary missional ground.
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85 Responses to “the place of third places”
I just posted a neat story about a church thats creating third space as their primary ministry.
Its a powerful need for the church to create spaces where the kingdom can intersect with them.
What if every church created such a space in their town?
I look forward to a kind of mixing of first and third places when my church plant goes forward…where we move away from the nuclear family model and back into some of those forgotten family ways
I agree Alan. In my specific context I have used my local gym and found a specific pocket of people. I have spent the past 6 months working my way into the group and it is beginning to open other areas of fertile soil.
We also attempt on occasion to use our home (parties, dinner, coffee) but that has not been as fruitful.
And just so you know, you did a great job at the conference - even though you were surrounded by the “Video Venue” guys. I pray your voice will be heard by many.
When I first heard of this concept (thanks to Michael Frost) I was dumbstruck at the simplicity and profoundity of it.
As we relaunch Revolution our vision is to worship God and love others in the third space (I just made that up on the fly).
I’m still unsure as to how, but I know God is directing us into the great unknown, which includes pubs, coffee shops, Gay and Lesbian offices on University, and Goth night clubs.
Some of this is down the road a bit, but one of the things we are doing right off the bat is to meet every other week during ‘church’ time at a local coffee shop. We’ll break up in groups of 10 and every week hit coffee shops all over town. We’ll probably start with 10 people total, so we’ll find that place to rest our hat (think Cheers) and meet them every other week. When we get larger, we’ll continue at that place, and find a ’second, third space’, and so on.
I would love to have Bible studies in a missional context in Coffee shops all over Fort Collins.
Pub theology is also right around the corner, engaging people who are interested in discussion spiritual issues of a beer once or twice a month. We already have more people interested in that than ’starting a church’.
oops that should say “spiritual discussion OVER beer” not “of a beer”
But I’m certainly not opposed to spiritual discussions about beer either.
Maybe we could call it, “The spritual of the spirits”
Nah.
Thanks for listening.
Part of what makes this hard, is that we’ve extracted our churches so far out of the wider culture that we no longer have any concept of what it means to just “be” in third places that aren’t our own turf. And we’ve got even less concept of what it might mean to be Jesus in those places.
I have questions over two thoughts that have been raised in previous comments …
- churches CREATING a third place - seems rather attractional rather than incarnational to me, isn’t it about going to the third places where the people already are?
- going in GROUPS to do church or whatever, in a pub or other third place. I think of these as places to BE rather than to DO. There’d have to be a real danger of just taking your church culture with you…. all sorts of questions. But then maybe the intention isn’t to stick together as a group???
Ruth - - yes, … and no…
at least in my understanding.
those are several different “concepts’ that you’re addressing that all have their own individual components and approaches.
church in public places is different from third spaces
third spaces as individuals is different than third spaces as a community
small, “neutral” dialog through community gatherings in public spaces is it’s own thing
I think the questions you raise are important ones but all of these approaches are ways to look at expanding our missional lives - - not the only ways, and not all relevant for every community. part of the whole point of “missional” is to be contextual and community specific.
I also think that for me, it’s important to remember that we are to be BOTH attractional and incarnational…at least IMO.
i have come from a para-church ministry (Young Life) that has had the core value for over 60yrs of “Going to where young people are at” this has been the model i have worked with for over 7 years… but now working for a church i understand how NOT like that we are….
My challenge is to work out how to encourage people to go where “people are at” i have committed this year to attending a weekly poker tournament… so far its a lot of just being seen in that context but i believe God is going to move amongst that community….
I also have talked about this stuff with other people at church and quite often the idea is “lets get a church poker group” etc…. its hard to get people thinking on doing ministry in third places… but i am willing to give it a go!
I did a blog post yesterday on the Mind Body Spirit Festival which is on again in Sydney next weekend. For many years I was involved in a ‘third place’ ministry within the festival called Community of Hope where we did incarnational evangelism using tarot cards and all sorts of innovative stuff. Since that time I’ve been involved in Pagan pub moots, drumming circles and various other spirituality festivals that bring me into conversation and friendship with various different tribes of spirituality consumers.
What strikes me about many ‘third place’ conversations within missional circles is how little attention is given to third places where explicitly spiritual conversations are happening already. Personally I find it much easier to speak of Jesus in such contexts, but there seems to be mistaken notions about secularity amongst many emergent groups that renders such spaces excluded from consideration, as somehow less secular. The irony of all this is that much postmodern culture was and is forged within such contexts, that it can be here, where the dichotomies between secularity and spirituality are being actively deconstructed, that we can find post-modernity at its edgiest.
I would like to encourage people to consider that, to look for third places in their own backyards where explicitly spiritual conversations are already going on in advance of Christians turning up. We need to be there too don’t we?
Alan,
This is an incredible post. I agree entirely. It was really good to hook up with you and get to know you and serve you at the NNCC. Thanks for signing my book. Our paths will cross again.
Blessings
Henry Judy
http://www.lifepointblog.tv
Great idea Matt.
I keep searching the internet to see what’s happening around here and just praying God will show us.
One thing we do want to do is get involved in some of the festivals here…Earth Day, There’s some sort of Beer Drinking Day, a Metaphysical Day…
I entered the recovery community (AA) two years ago. It’s been an amazing journey in many ways. I believe that this type of community is a blending of all three places. At least that has been my exprience and I can’t tell you how grateful I am for that. In my opinion, the church could learn SO much from AA.
Matt - totally! I agree and it *is* being done
I read about it anyway.
Matt, you know I wonder how much of what you are suggesting is overlooked because of the kinds of culture shock we have discussed previously? Many people are afraid of interacting with those who are searching spiritually in what would be considered “new age” arenas. For many churches, this places/people are frequently avoided as evil/demonic.
Do you have any wisdom to share concerning how to make this approach? How much do you need to understand about what others believe before you can engage? You have spoken on your blog about the challenge of knowing how far you can go. How do those of us who don’t have your background navigate this terrain?
Perhaps these places are only for those who have already come from that cultural context? I think we need to be wise and discerning…and there’s much too little of that, IMHO.
Any ideas?
I agree with Ruth’s in this blog for sure. I am in process of the idea of being missional, if you will, with the idea of “being” rather than “doing”.
I am still in deep process with all of this “original” way of thinking. But, should we enter into places and into relationship with people and the expectation to bring them to “church” or “faith” or rather to befriend them for the sake of loving them?
I think the resounding Yes to the latter needs to be proclaimed more then the other. In America the though of “oh, you are just being my friend so I will go to your church” is a common statement among not-yet-Christians. This will take a long time to change but, if it does change then I think the world will really see followers of Christ as loving and not as selfish.
Any thoughts?
-Jake Rasmussen
Tucson, AZ
I’m with you, Jake. We have to get the “object” mentality out of mission…we are to be incarnational because Jesus was about loving people…because our loving people is what will change their lives and bring them to the inquire about the source of the love….
I don’t think a single one of us would disagree with you jake
honestly, yes we need to work hard to break that stereotype but the sought are also going to have to get to the point where they are also willing to engage without that suspicion. I can only do SO MUCH toward helping in that area.
As usual, you are dead on target. …I really enjoyed connecting with you in Orlando. Thanks for being there and helping us see Christ - even in church planting
Excellent and exciting. We are due to open our third space used bookstore in our inner city neighbourhood in the coming months (gulp!). Terrifyingly thrilling!
Peace,
Jamie
Alan, glad you managed to meet up with Drew he said your presentation was great.
Our hope is to have a “third space” coffee house opened here in Edinburgh within two years, the city has a real coffee culture and we are optimistic about the potential
I agree with you mate. With indigenous peoples in the west however the boundaries between 1st, 2nd and 3rd places are as not as prounounced. Often all three involve a lot of the same people and therefore the same community…….they still have what we have given up.
I get the vibe of what is being said, yet don’t you think that the underlying thought pattern is a little Hellenistic?
Hellenistic thinking compartmentalizes into defined spheres thereby, in many cases, creating a rift between spiritual and secular. If we view totality of spirituality as from the Hebraic mindset then won’t this “places” be rendered one?
Shane, not at all. In fact the ability to ’sacralize’ our places of play is to create a more seamless experience of faith. Often we can seem to find God in the pub.
It seems a tad presumptuous to me to think we can guess how well the public would accept our created 3rd spaces. I tend to agree with Shane Rooney that it still has an air of Hellenism to it. I don’t understand why we think we have to ‘create’ spaces when they already exist - pubs, truck stops, gyms, parks, coffee houses, the bar of a local restaurant. If we want to start something like this to subsidize our mission work, then fine, if we have something marketable, but there are plenty of 3rd spaces out there without inventing them.
It’s all about building friendships just like all people do. It’s still the best way I know of getting people to trust you, learn to respect and admire your faith rather than despise it, to develop good conversation with them as well as lasting relationships.
Webb, who says we must create them?? They already exist out there. We just need to be in and at them.
Hullo-o-o
At the risk of perhaps upsetting some nice folks, even causing controversy… I’m revisiting the gospels and considering where Jesus hung out, who he hung out with, what he said…
He didn’t seem to be home much with his family and didn’t seem to get to the carpentry shop much either… he didn’t create third spaces, but he hung out in other’s third places and he even ventured into the fourth space - the “church” - too… though often he was giving religious leaders a hard time. He polarised people and infuriatingly answered questions with questions. Some people loved him and financially supported him, others hated him and wanted to kill him. Most of us are not prepared to polarise others, mostly because we don’t want to be hated to that extent - people are not polarised by what we say… they just ignore the whole Christian crutch…
Who are you, what do you love to do… what are you passionate about, what are you good at, what has God put in your heart to do… Be real about the answer to those questions though and find others who will be real to you too - for example if you can’t sing or perform don’t audition for “Idol.” If you’re a true friend tell the truth, don’t let friends whose talents lie elsewhere embarrass themselves in the wrong area. Be who you truly are and do what you truly do… don’t be a weak wannabe clone.
How often in his discussions does Jesus quote the Scriptures… rarely! Often it is in a religious setting or in response to religious questions from religious people. You don’t read of him setting up bible study in the inn, he does his religious thinking away from those places and comes to third places with a life perspective. He’s smart, he doesn’t get all religious in people’s faces in their third places, he doesn’t quote chapter and verse (well he couldn’t as they were a later invention, but you get the point.) Jesus tells stories that he has crafted, stories that have a spiritual point… the fact that most times people don’t even get the point doesn’t seem to concern him - he’s sown the seed out there! He interrupts the mundane with the miraculous - Wolfgang Simson termed him a “spiritual burglar” invading people’s personal space. Jesus makes the point that the scriptures make, but he does it in language that people speak and in signs and wonders - not quoting biblical language, but making a thoroughly biblical point…
Jesus takes time out to go be with the Father - he gets what God is on about… he doesn’t need to quote chapter and verse because he’s absorbed what it’s all about, so when he speaks - even in the common idiom - the points he makes are the things that the Father is speaking, the principles alive in the moment - not trapped in language, terminology, idiom that’s thousands of years old! If we are to be followers of Jesus we ought to be prepared before going to third places, go hang out with the Father, get the point, absorb the point, embody the point… incarnate the point. Then find creative ways to express the point… in movies and painting, in songs and dialogue, in sport and life… Find ways to engage people in conversation paint your car fluorescent pink or a Harley bright orange…
Go feed those in poverty and clothe those on the streets… take time out to serve in a soup kitchen or visit a jail. Go to the mountain and develop faith to see the kingdom of God come on the earth, to see freedom and release for people caught up in life’s rat race. Develop faith to see health and healing, to see divine intervention, go to people and lay hands on them… By all means go to the coffee shop… but not to have a bible study - if I see a bunch of Christians having a bible study in the corner of the coffee shop… at best I’ll sit in the opposite corner… or if possible find another coffee shop. I’m a believer and I’m going to avoid it… how’s the unbeliever going to go?
Don’t take your Bible out - leave Linus’s blanket at home! Find the principles you seek in discussing the songs of Henry Rollins, or Nick Cave, or Pink or whoever else. Quote Shakespeare or Tennessee Williams - perform soliloquys in bookshops and debate them. In a video store discuss the plagues of the Reaping, the character of the Spartans in 300, the leadership of a Braveheart type character. If necessary discuss Tolkien or C.S. Lewis, disagree on the characterisation of Shadowlands or the symbolism of Lord of the Rings… Develop a writer’s group in a coffee shop and have a short story competition, create parables of internet technology and global warming. Write songs of love and hate… play the devil’s advocate - see things from the other perspective. Paint great murals on walls and intimate watercolours in cafes… whatever your avenue create parables and invite people in.
Leave your Christian paraphernalia at home and take Jesus along instead. Consider prayer, how might it happen in a public place… do we really need to close our eyes and squint like we’ve got constipation, or can we look people in the eye and quietly, faithfully speak words of faith for healing, peace, release? Don’t worry so much beforehand about whether people should join a church or whatever, just be friends, be real and seek to introduce people to Jesus… with some sensitivity about the timing - build bridges of love to people and let Jesus build his church…
Don’t wait twelve months, two years, five years to create a space, don’t say four months, then will come harvest, open your eyes… now is the time!! And… when you get to the pub… mine’s a pint of Guinness!
Slainte
A Celtic Son
I’m guessing I misunderstood the original post because I agree that we most often find God in what you are calling the third place. Correct me if I’m wrong, but now my understanding is that you are using these terms to give context to an aspect of life that the Church has neglected, rather than a separation of things we do.
I also whole heartedly agree that we the Church need to be out there in them and that is a (one of a few) primary functions of Christians. We are to “Go” as Jesus said, and there is tremendous opportunity for Christ if we let Him.
Howdy CS,
Excellent post. I agree that doing bible studies/church in third places is awkward at best. And I see that third spaces are critical as the overlap between Christians and not yet Christians, that is, the place of evangelism. The question I have is where does evangelism stop and discipleship begin? (And by where, I mean both geographically (ie third space or some other space) and where along their journey) Is it possible and/or correct to disciple from the get go regardless of someones knowledge of Christ?
In that sense, if we are to teach them to observe all things Jesus has commanded, I feel that we will need to study Jesus (the gospels, and to put them in context the rest of the bible). My only concern with complete contextualization and leaving out scripture is that we will reach people with Christ-like elements within culture while leaving Christ and the records of Him completely out of the picture. Yes, our lives are living testaments of Jesus, but I would want them to see Jesus straight from the source: His own life.
Also, do you think that Jesus didn’t quote scripture since the culture He was in was already familiar with it? Perhaps He only used it to correct the pharisees and scribes misinterpretation of it. I’m certainly no 1st century jewish scholar so that is just a guess.
I’m enjoying this discussion. It leaves me with another question. When does ‘contextualization’ cross the line into ’seeker friendly’ territory? While I think contextualization is important (Jesus used cultural concepts relating to an agricultural culture to describe the kingdom of God, for example), I’ve never liked the ’seeker friendly’ concept which places pleasing man above pleasing God. If we have a radical gospel, and an offensive gospel (which I believe we do), then where is the balance between contextualization and seeker-friendliness? To heck with it, this stuff is to complicated for me. Maybe I’ll just ask God what to do and obey what He tells me. Maybe sometimes that will include a Bible verse, and maybe sometimes it won’t.
Shane…
that’s much more the aspect that Alan and others are getting at in using the term “third places,” that we need to “Go” to people, rather than expect them to come to us…
Sarah…
IMHO contextualisation is the living out of the principles of the gospel in the contexts we live in 24/7… “Seeker friendly” typically applies to a “church service” when we try to create an environment… That approach has seemed to work for certain people in the past 20 years or so, but seems to be increasingly identified as an “artificial” methodology that is less relevant as people are seeking authenticity.
In the context of “The Forgotten Ways” and much emerging church thinking “seeker friendly” is not a hot topic, because “church services” are not a central focus. Personally I lead a church that has small groups that meet midweek, has folks involved in a wide range of community activities - some of which are missional - and also still has a larger Sunday gathering. The Sunday meeting includes songs of worship, communion, communication of decisions in written and spoken form and preaching, in a little over an hour, then we share food and drinks and hang out and talk for another hour and a half. The “Service” is not our major focus, though there are concerns about it becoming a substitute for real relationship with God, but we have not yet come up with a better way of connecting everyone and communicating together.
At the end of the day we can over complicate things in the analysis process and your conclusion is what it’s all about - relationship with God and radical obedience… Go for it
Cameron…
you are right that discipleship is an absolutely critical issue. My suggestion wasn’t don’t learn from the Bible… but to do that in advance. When Jesus is asked about prayer he says go into your room close the door - it’s not a spectator sport - and pray. When he was focussed primarily on discipleship he took the people closest to him aside to teach them - occasionally crowds turned up on the back of this and he included them, but that wasn’t his primary focus for discipleship. Discipleship in Jesus terms is an apprenticeship process - three years of living together, walking together, personally passing on lessons that we’ve learned and are living out.
In the West, we’ve made discipleship a pale shadow of that… we send our disciples off to a foreign site, with intellectual people to fill their memory with facts, to pass written tests filled with information that has no practical application to their lives. Then after a number of years we expect them to drop back into a context and be able to relate to people! Where do we get that idea from what Jesus illustrates as discipleship?
For me discipleship happens in third places and in “first places” - we gather with people and discuss the Bible, predominantly in one another’s homes over and after a good meal. In that setting look at the text, context, cotext of the Bible, discuss, define and grow in what we believe. Our discussions should be in the framework of the “first place” being a “forth place” - how will I live out the things I believe when I go from here into second and third places/ So, people who express interest in our discussions in the third place setting, are invited into the first place setting to explore things further… does that make some sense?
There are other developed methodologies from this point - Neil Cole’s Life Transformation Group methodology, a variety of Cell Church models - essentially in the West we have taught believers to devolve their responsibility for mission to the “church organisation.” We need to regain personal responsibility, which requires discipleship and personal accountability in smaller groups, doing life alongside other people who passionately love God. It’s time for us all to support one another in growing up, organically developing and living out the life of Christ in our own lives… which, you are right, requires discipleship
Slainte
A Celtic Son
“My only concern with complete contextualization and leaving out scripture”
What makes you think contextualization means leaving out scripture? I mean, yes, contextualization does require us to dispense with the sort of circular reasoning whereby “because scripture says so” is our answer to every challenge to Christ’s authority, but genuine contextualization equally requires us to contextualize scripture in ways that can be understood by seekers and to introduce them to it. Our use of the tarot evangelistically within Mind Body Spirit Festivals often concluded with an invitation for shoppers to read scripture with new eyes. And it was an invitation that was often taken up. Many gospels were handed out. There is a clear line between a contextualization approach that would contextualize scripture and a syncretization approach that would relativize it altogether.
Hullo-o-o
gotta say I agree with Matt on this … I suspect that a fear of the reality of contextualisation, causes many of us to find ways to justify not doing it. The fact that Jesus is reported as not quoting the scriptures that often, in proportion to all that he said, clearly does not mean that he didn’t embody/incarnate/contextualise the message…
I’m not so sure though that the “line between a contextualization approach that would contextualize scripture and a syncretization approach that would relativize it altogether” is really always that clear. At times I find the line after I’ve crossed it, and realise I need to take a step back… It’s also often related to a person’s calling and gifts… I’d be really uncomfortable pumping weights in a gym or handling Tarot cards at a festival - happy to be there and connect with people in other ways though. Bars, motorbikes and coffee shops are more my contextualising cup of tea… so to speak!
Slainte
A Celtic Son
CS and Matt,
Thanks for clarifying everything, that makes much more sense now. In that sense contextualization is great at reaching whatever group/groups. And yes it is difficult to know the lines between that and syncreticism, but I think that’s why grace becomes so important as we all try to follow Christ in different cultures and spaces. Knowing that line is something that true discipleship can show/experience and that can’t simply be taught from a book.
And CS, the model you have between the third and first spaces makes a lot of sense. It avoids the awkward Bible study off in the corner of the coffee shop that only receives the askew glances. I think the method of discipleship you line out is the one Jesus led and is really beautiful. It’s sad to see how the extreme specialization of western culture has seeped into discipleship to make it a career for a few instead of a lives spent with other lives diversified into all fields and interests.
David, If you ever get serious about getting involved in the Metaphysical Day I would be happy to help you get started. You may find it instructive to read John Morehead’s (http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com) latest musings on the Burning Man Festival which are starting to trickle out as he nears completion of a 100 page thesis on missional engagement with this “third place”. The copy I have is an advanced one so I can’t forward it but I am sure John would be happy to interact with you on it. Books you may find of value are “Encountering New Religious Movements” and “Jesus and the Gods of the New Age” which are both written by various friends of mine who’ve got a wealth of experience in this sort of thing. The former won some awards recently and features a bit on yours truly (shameless plug here). Phil Johnson over at Circle of Pneuma is the true guru on this style of “third place” engagement so be sure to check out his blog and online articles. Phil Wyman (US) and Sally Coleman (UK) are other important characters to check out.
Peggy, I do think culture shock and demonic fears are a factor. I must say I find myself rather bemused at times when I see emerging church leaders falling back on fundamentalist spiritual warfare teachings (I wont name names) when forms of engagement like this are proposed. I feel it suggests a lack of integration between their “understanding” that the Spirit of God moves beyond church space and their actual coming to grips with the practical and missiological implications. But if the Spirit of God is truly “omnipresent” then there is no cultural space anywhere where we cannot expect to find the Spirit of God working in some way. There is no territory on earth where Satan has absolute sovereignty. That includes within bona fide Satanist circles! For a model to follow we need look no further than Jesus himself. Did he fear going into unclean places? Whom did he consider more contagious? More powerful? God or demons?
On understanding others, how can anyone truly understand without engaging? Engagement comes first. Read primary source literature, observe their ways, actively listen and seek to understand. Earn your right to tell your story by inviting them to tell their story first. I have personally gone way beyond my own cultural context. If I had stayed within it I would have limited my engagement to the third places of eclectic spirituality consumers and western Buddhists. But these days I spend more time in the third places of Wiccans and Reconstructionist Pagans. In my travels I’ve encountered Raelians, folk Hindus, Sai Baba devotees and more. This year I even joined a theistic Satanist discussion forum. When I initially dived in to these various contexts I knew very little. I simply asked them to share their story. I simply trusted God would be there, ahead of me. I was never disappointed. To spiritual warfare advocates I say, pray up close and personal, not from a fearful distance. That was the way of Jesus.
Of course discernment is an essential skill, but there is plenty of missiological literature on critical contextualization and missional discernment for those willing to read it and learn from it. I suspect so few read missiological literature because so few are willing to get themselves into situations where learning it is crucial.
Matt
Yeah, maybe I overstated the case on clarity somewhat; I admit there are times when it can be ambiguous. But I do think you develop a “wine tasters pallet” over time. The more familiar you become with your context, and doing theology and worship within it, the more obvious it becomes. The big rule of thumb though is the centrality of Jesus in whatever approach you adopt. As for the tarot cards stuff I mention, that is a highly contextual form of engagement that we don’t use everywhere with everyone. We restrict it to contexts where there are lots of people with pre-existing interest. We’ve used it at Sydney Mind Body Spirit Festivals because tarot is very big there, but at other spirituality festivals, such as the Winter Magic festival in the Sydney Blue Mountains, we’ve done different stuff more in tune with what went on there. As I said, it’s highly contextual.
What I think people sometimes miss is that the same goes for other approaches. Contemplative prayer is no more a cure all for engaging with contemporary spirituality than the tarot based evangelism I’ve mentioned here. It does not automatically follow that lectio divina is highly contextual or even safer.
Matt, we will definitely keep you in the loop. We’re thinking of doing something next year probably…this year will likely come upon us too soon. We went last year and thought that it would be very cool to have a tent there. (inspired by some of Jonny Baker’s experiences)
Hey All
This topic is one that is very exciting to me
After being introduced to the 3rd place concept by the Forge crew I felt strognly led to create a 3rd place missional space
The Common interest around which we gather is the little wierd subculture of Slot Car Racing
At the start of the year I started out with no answers to many of my questions but as institutional church had none either I decided to go with the experiment
3 months in and my wife and I were feeling a little unsure about the whole missional thing but I think this was due to us droping back to the default paradigm when it came to mesuring success
After listening to Al’s great talk about Jewish spirituality and the notion of Gods character being released from creation with every good deed we began to recognise a few things
What good was happening in our 3rd place?
I noticed how the guys treated my wife with the utmost respect
One of the guys buys licorace every friday to share with my 4 year old son
The guys have been impressed by observing my 8 year old daughter as she sits beside the track and reads a book and in turn they encourage me in my parenting
Myself and my wife have chosen to recognise and value the good in others and encourage it
There have been even more significant discussions that I have had with these men on deeply personal issues in which my personal faith has been relevent to the discussion and at times I have been amazed at the openess I have seen in normally closed aussie men
This depth of discussion doesn’t happen after 1 hour or 2 hours or even 3 hours somtimes it is only after 4 hours of talking general rubbish that we get to the real issues of life
Now this might seem like a very time expensive type of ministry but you have forgoten that the first few hours are filled with laughs and jeering around the slot car track and periodic spells at the tables with a drink or a hot dog
For once in my life ministry is completely fun and rewarding and the friendships are genuine rather than being business like due to being committed to the churches corporate goal
From my limited experience a 3rd place can be used to provide enouge space in this crazy life to build relationships beyond the normal level
Go for it is all I can say
Within our space ordinary aussie blokes gather for between 3 and 6 hours at a time a couple of times a week
During this time we began to see
Great discussion folks. Contextalization is such a critical issue. Thanks for the tons of insights.
And Mak, I want to go to Burning Man either this year, or the next. Keep in touch. I know some of the organizers. Fantastic followers who are right in there.
BTW, I’d be interested to see what you think about my feeling that the ‘house church’ in the West is limited by our idea of the nuclear family–which is a relatively new invention coming out of the industrialization of the West. That’s exactly why I never use the term! Immediately we think of a little defensive unit rather than the inclusive ‘household’ of the ancient world. Their houses were more like cafes!
Yo RePete…
slot car mission sounds like much more fun than “Sunday Church Service,” love it… must come for a race sometime…
Alan,
I agree about the limitations of the western concept of “house church”… which means, if we truly value what God values, then we have to intentionally make our homes places of gathering, life and discipleship… As we do that we pass the model on to our kids, our friends and extended family. Having met you and Deb I’m sure that’s a culture you value and have cultivated.
I’m about to give some examples from everyday life… I often encd up using examples from my own life, but it’s something that I’m never comfortable with. My aim is not to blow my own trumpet, it is to say that I try to practice what I preach. When I contribute to TFW blog, it’s from a perspective of living it out. I am aware of huge deficiencies in my own life and mission - although we have “suffered” at times, it is minor in light of the reality of global suffering for the gospel… in global terms I recognise I have incredible wealth - we do support missionaries overseas, but it is a small sacrifice. So I don’t hold myself up as if my way is perfect, right or by any means THE way. This is simply my response to some of the challenges that have been raised in the blog… each of us needs to live out the gospel in ways that are authentic to us… this is a little insight into our way…
My wife and I have intentionally sought to bring a balance between having time as a family, with our two kids and the dog, and having a lifestyle that openly embraces and supports others. Since we met 18 years ago we have very rarely lived without sharing our lives and our home with others - we did have a three month period before our first daughter was born 8 years ago! It’s not always easy, but it’s seldom dull… For the last 12 months we’ve had a “lodger” who had previously come out of rehab after 14 months.
As an example, from Friday evening till last night we’ve had over 30 people around our table, and caught up the community of people, who we journey with in church life, on Sunday morning - seven years ago we began gathering as a community church with two other families. There were 13 people for dinner on Friday night - some of them were friends who were not married, and most of the others were their friends, some we hadn’t met before. We had a great meal - home made lasagne, salad, garlic bread, dessert, wine etc - my wife does most of the work preparing, cleaning and cooking and our greatest weekly expense is our grocery bill. At some point when we are gathered around the table the conversation inevitably turns to the subject of God, in some respect. Our aim is simply to sow seed, we are aware that the atmosphere of our home and the integrity of what we say and do, in the course of serving a meal and making people feel welcomed, speaks volumes, before a word is spoken. We are also aware of the great opportunities that arise to share the love of Christ in words too.
On Saturday morning, I had my fortnightly catch-up with my prayer partner - from 6am to 8am. As Saturday is a day when we aim to do things together as a family, we all went to a birthday party for a friend’s one year old son. We were able to support them, making connections with a whole group of their friends from pre-natal groups and playgroups. Our daughters are very sociable and helpful with younger kids, they are great kids and often remarked on as an example that it is possible to raise resectful healthy kids in this day and age - they are 6 and 8 years old, so there is time yet for our parental weaknesses to be exposed. In the afternoon my wife and the girls caught up with another friend and her kids and I went off to pray and prepare for our Sunday gathering (I’m not supposed to do that as we have agreed that Saturday is a family day! There were things I hadn’t got prepared in time… possibly because in my lack of discipline I’d spent too much time on TFW Blog!) In the evening we went to a BBQ for a friend’s 50th - he’s a motor mechanic, so we had the opportunity to meet a variety of people from that industry and other family and friends. There was little explicit talk of God, though that may be because I was introduced as the pastor of their church (which I dislike!)at least people get to see you’re relatively normal - I knew more of the words to the songs on the hired jukebox, than most of the others!
On Sunday we had our church gathering, and spent time together afterwards with a great bunch of people over tea, coffee and food… Then we had 12 people around for lunch. Over lunch we had the inevitable discussion and, to coin a phrase, the young earth theory got a scorching… It’s not that I necessarily agree or disagree on the age of the planet… I just don’t know! What I do know is that taking a strong stance on such an obscure issue is fatal to genuine mission, so I contributed that observation.
Yesterday, my wife and I caught up for lunch and talked about the weekend and the week ahead. Last night we had a group of folk around, we had coffee and desert and had a bloke from our community, who has a teaching gift, share an oversight on the gospel of John, from the perspective of how we apply “belief” in everyday life - we’ll do that, as one aspect of discipleship, over the next 8 Monday nights.
Tonight my wife leads a group for women, in another family’s home and I spend the evening at home with our daughters. Tomorrow night my wife and the girls spend time together and I’ll work late in the office - maybe contribute to a blog as well. Thursday evening is our “family night” - after school we all do something together… go swimming, go to a park, hang out somewhere and then we go to a cheapie restaurant for a meal - just the four of us, no visitors invited - we talk to each other about our week and anything that is good, bad or ugly! We intentionally build routine into our chaos, and our daughters value that.
All of this simply to respond to Alan’s comment about the concept of nuclear family, to say that we don’t have to live under an imposed culture, if we have an authentic understanding of Biblical culture… Not every household will do things our way, maybe we won’t always do things this way… but we do need to express the loving nature of a God who goes after His lost children in a way that is authentic to each of us…
I’m looking forward to some time hanging out with my daughters this evening… reading, writing, laughing, praying…
Beannachd Dia dhuit
A Celtic Son
here’s a jot on your thot, alan. a story, actually.
so there i am, sitting in the congregation at the “seeker sensitive” church i attended, and the pastor announces that they’re going to do a six-week series on marriage.
so, i go up afterwards and say, “so, what are all of us who are single supposed to do the next month and a half? is there any reason why we shouldn’t just go elsewhere?” surely they would never find it very “friendly” to seekers to do an extended series on singleness for the entire audience where the majority are married, with kids–so, why the reverse?
as an unmarried man (and no thanks, don’t try to get me hitched), i find it much easier to range in a tribal mentality that has roots in a Hebraic notion of extended family or clan than to be deranged, identified, categorized, and atomized into oblivion by the Western notion of family–not just in a nuclear family, but also in churches, organizations, teams, etc. there are cultural boundaries where there need not be. in residential communities with a Christo-tribal reality, at least i felt included all the time than i do in many churches where i feel excluded some of the time.
end of the story: the speakers in the “marriage series” figured out a way to include relevant stuff for singles each week on how we fit into families. plus one of those six Sundays, singles were on a panel where we dialogued about singles being included in the context of extended families. (which actually was cool, not just a concession. how many churches would do a series where a significant group might be excluded for weeks, and NOT offer any alternative or find a way to include?)
it’s the system of a “dissecting paradigm” that bothers me, and to show the other side of the story, there are half a dozen family units in this church that have literally kept me alive and sane (well, if the latter is even possible …) in the midst of several dark and difficult years. i know where i am always welcomed …
meanwhile, in the tribal-residential-community, it really was more unbounded: a couple, five singles, a cat and a dog, two large refrigerators, open kitchen-to-dining-room, two living rooms and a deck … made for salons and conversations of all kinds, with guests and friends and food happening. a lot. i miss it …
Alan,
Which term do you not use? House Church? or Nuclear family? Just wondering….
Thanks, Matt, for your comments. I know the time will be right one of these days to deal with the issues where I have been burned in the past.
Just thinking through some of this, already (the house church-thing)…. As Zizioulas points out, the being of the church (specifically, baptism) is the means by which the person transcends the exclusivism that the biological family confines to ontological individualism and, necessarily, death. Perhaps the “ancient world household” was a better representative of that possibility. House groups are nearly compelled to be exclusivist. If one loves by biological comfort (same people, the knowing-what-to-expect—which is what so often occurs in Western house church/groups), then love is stifled and one is cut off from being, that is Loving “unconstrained by the natural laws.” Even in the context of the ancient world household, Jesus commanded that we “hate” that natural family—to be free “from the relationship created by [one’s] biological identity.”
That’s why I love this discussion of going to (action), these third places (reflecting the very character of the Trinity). This transcends that physical comfort of “knowing” to be in the “unknown” (or, control) of what Love will do—being, showing love in the presence of others who might never see or be face-to-face with that Love otherwise. When we “create a third place” we risk controlling it, making it comfortable for us. But, I think this was already established in the beautiful conversation before my “input”! It seems to me, when we are free from the constructs of the church “corporation”, even trying to “make church” in another context, and just be love without trying to define even who is family (which the American Family Assoc. et al are obliged to do), we are closer to following Jesus. Of course, again, it does seem the Western nuclear family-idea/ideal? frame-of-reference is especially far from expanding its boundaries, and limiting to imagination. Am I making sense? too simplistic? or am I on crack?
btw, I shared your comments, Alan, with my husband, and he replied with, “Wow, that’s a really good point. Makes total sense but I have never thought of that before. I know a part of me has had a little dislike for the phrase. Maybe it seemed antiquated to me. Not sure, but it totally makes sense now. Thanks! Let’s do Café Church!” Just trying to reconcile all this with “ordination”!
Peggy, I meant ‘house church’ The phrase is highly problematic to me.
Besides, most times it neds up as a bad version of the larger church with bad singing and bad sermons. If however, we put the group into a third place, they are ‘forced’ to contextualize worship and become more sensitive to the frige=dwellers and ‘outsiders’ of the group or risk being expelled from the cafe/sports club or whatever.
That’s partly why I prefer Neil Cole’s term ‘organic church’ to house church.
I think our desire to name things, ie house church is out, cafe church is in etc, as part of the problem. Let groups/movements etc call themselves whatever they want…or don’t want….as long as those in the group are not already socailised into the current church model. Our desire to name things stems in part from our felt need to understand, control and specify things so we can comment, organise or dismiss them as the case may be.
Lets also be aware of the fact that the world is not all western (I know you constantly say this Hirschy so keep it up). Many different groups and cultures would fing this whole discussion a load of %$#^ as it does not represent their world view at all.
Hey Darryl,
I’m not sure I understand the point you’re trying to make… it’s reading a lot into the worldview expressed here to lump all motivations for naming things together - “felt need to understand, control and specify things so we can comment, organise or dismiss them as the case may be…” - as if somehow that sums things up. The need to understand doesn’t necessitate control, and the conclusion of understanding is not necessarily always any or all of that you suggest. Our hope is that in better understanding we’ll find healthier motivations and models for moving forward…
I agree with Alan’s concern for the concept of house church that he describes, but not all house churches fit that description. In terms of forcing people to contextualise worship in a third place I’ve found that difficult to develop and even more difficult to maintain. There is an element of worship that is engaging our lives wholly for God as in Romans 12
and in a spiritual aspect related to truth in life encounters - when we are engaged in mission it is an act of worship. There is also an element of passionately expressing our love of God, an element of teaching and discipleship and a place for the church gathered. I tend to see third places as space for the former and first places as space for the latter… whatever we call either space.
I thgink most of us are pretty aware that the world is not all western… but this discussion is based on Alan’s post specifically about the Western context! Most of those with worldviews that would consider us full of %$#^ wouldn’t bother with our discussion as the topic would be irrelevant. The aim here is to try to develop some solutions to the problem we face in the west, rather than just point out the crap we already know… Let’s continue on a journey towards understanding that leads to radical acts of obedience to God and radical followers of Jesus gathered in mission together…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Hey Celtic Son
Slot Racing Sure is more fun than the average sunday service and we are seeing wonderfull things happen but my wife and I still long for the next level
We regonise that while we are conducting mission we hope one day to belong to a community of faith that supports one another and will be accepting of the people we meet in the third place
I am on the Central Coast of NSW if you ever come through wyong your more than welcome to drop in
Cheers Pete
Celtic son….I did not say the participants of this discussion do not take account of the cultural differences or that the desire to control reflects their views. However I do think this is the case in most cases…especially where the institution, or the protectors of it, are involved. As you say “The aim here is to try to develop some solutions to the problem we face in the west, rather than just point out the crap we already know… Let’s continue on a journey towards understanding that leads to radical acts of obedience to God and radical followers of Jesus gathered in mission together…” this includes not taking things personally and not assuming that everyone knows.
its all part of the conversation
RePete…
I’m sure to come through Wyong some time and will try to slot in some time to visit!
Darryl…
sorry if you felt I was taking your comments personally… not my intention at all… Your post didn’t make sense to me in the light of the direction the conversation had been taking. It didn’t add to the dialogue and it seemed to me that you jumped to some unfair conclusions - so I questioned them… there was nothing personal in it.
I don’t disagree with your response that “the institution, or the protectors of it,” may be guilty of control or not taking cultural issues into account, but that’s not the kind of people contributing to this discussion, so your posts fail to make sense to me in this context…
Alan’s post “the place of third places”
set the context… it begins
“I think in the West third places are absolutely vital apect of mission in Western (and every other) contexts.”
He makes the point of the West as a context, with redundancy for emphasis, which is why this discussion is focussed on mission in a western context… it’s not that people are unaware of the greater global context… it’s just that right now we are having a discussion in a narrower context. In that light, you might understand why your second paragraph in particular seemed aggressive and unnecessary - I still don’t get the point, perhaps I am out of context and everyone else knows it is all part of the conversation.
Feel free to enlighten me further, and rest assured that I won’t take it personally… well maybe just this once ah’ll cry masel tae sleep oan ma big pilla…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Slot Car Racing! First time I’ve heard that one! I always enjoy hearing of the different ways people are doing things. My first thought was, I wonder how do you transition to spiritual conversations through that? But you’ve answered it admirably. Taking time to be with men just as they are. Sounds like a perfect demonstration of the limitations of ‘efficient’ programs. If efficiency was your main criteria of success you’d probably never give it a go. I wonder how efficient it was of Jesus to hang out at wells at odd times of the day in the middle of nowhere when he could have been doing mass preaching in Jerusalem?
I want to share another quote from Gordon Cosby: (re the nuclear family).
“The tragic thing is that very few people ever get past the point of looking after their own situation, their own personal lives and their own families and they keep arguing, “If we take away from this thing which we need to be working at, if we take it away from our family, we’re neglecting our responsibilities,” This is right on one level and wrong at another level. Unless some people have time left over, unless they have some love left over, unless they have some resources left over for people who don’t eat, for people who are desperate, none of us is going to have any family. We are not going to exist at all. It is that simple. That is what the prophets of God are talking about. We simply can’t live alone.” (Gordon Cosby of the Church of the Saviour)
If society is falling apart it will not be because we failed to focus in on the family it will be because we have decided to focus in on our family. It is a paradox. We simply cannot turn in on ourselves. Churches, individuals or families. Our focusing in on our families will eventually come back and destroy our own families. We will build up fences to keep everyone else’s problems out…… and when people feel alone they cannot tackle the problems that come their way very well.
House churches have great potential so long as they remain focused in on the commission Jesus gave us. But house churches historically have a “come to us” feel about them. Their answer for mission is hoping some hears about their house church and phones them up wanting to attend their meetings. Now I am generalizing here. I am sure there are some great exceptions. My experience with house church is that there simply wasn’t time for each other or reaching out beyond the 2 hour meeting. Almost everyone was focusing in on their families. As a matter of fact there was a very strong resistance to mission for that very reason. The other was my work is my ministry.
The focus on the nuclear family is probably second biggest hindrance (# 1 is materialism) to reaching out. I am not saying that we neglect our families but we have to find a way to say to our kids “it’s not all about you.” Our kids have to know that we love them not by doting all over them by giving them whatever they want. They too have to learn to become disciples of the serving Jesus. I have a little more to say but I have to go to work………
The quote from Cosby is found in an article by O’Connor here at http://www.faithatwork.com/history/OConnor/EOC-WhatTheWorldNeeds.html
It is not an article for the faint hearted
Hi All… It’s been a while since I posted but I wanted to share my own thoughts on “first places” and “third places”.
CS… I appreciate you self-descriptive post re. how you and your’s have opened your home to others. In many ways I’m a “wanna-be” when it comes to that level of domestic openness but I must confess that I am someone who cherishes the opportunity to go home, close my door and get away.
Maybe it is because I am more introverted than extroverted (approx. 60% Introvert on the Myers-Briggs… my wife is evenly split between the two)but I need my home to be a place to escape “far from the madding crowd”.
Now this is not to say that we are recluses and isolated. We have opened our home to people who were in need of a “home”: two of our friends, at different times, each stayed for about 3 months each, a friend of my son stayed with us for about 2 months {and stole around $500.00 from us… but that’s another story)and a homeless family stayed with us for about a week. And, it has never been unusual to get up in the morning to find our kids’ high-school/college friends camped-out on our floor (having been at our home until late… these days it is because my son’s Christian “hard-core” band has been rehearsing long into the evening…). But still, while we try to sustain an “open door”… we are thrilled when we can shut the door and send them home.
For me, this underscores the importance of “third places”. I don’t believe that I, as a host in my home, am the only one uncomfortable with people “invading” my little domestic sanctuary. I believe that those guests (unless they are already friends) can feel pretty uncomfortable having to relate on my “turf”.
But, “third places” are neutral… for me… and for them. We can come together without alot of that relational discomfort. And later… I can go home and allow my introverted self to re-charge. (Unless… of course they want to cme stay at my house… oh no… I sure hope not.)
Big Blessings… Mark
Frank…
some very good points. I’d add that materialism is a core of the self-absorbed nuclear family artifice. Our children lack for nothing material, but gain nothing in authentic love, developing discipline, caring for others etc. by their parent’s example of exclusivity.
Alan and others are right to challenge the “nuclear family” concept. When we think “family” we need to think broader than just our progeny - there are people we ought to adopt; they add colour to our table and dimension to our mission. Holistic embracing, extended family - rather than the “1.8 kids, a dog and Dum and Mad” nuclear variety - is a key to healthy life, but it’s not an end in itself… it provides a foundation for mission. If your family life is unhealthy then any mission stemming from that root will be unhealthy… the corollary is also true; healthy mission is a vital aspect of a healthy family.
Mark,
as I wrote in that post I don’t think my way is THE way - we each have unique characteristics… I do think that there will be extroverts around who need your input to help them learn to stop, revive and survive. Many of the people who join us at times around our table are introverts… they need space. I learned from an introvert that I needed to create some space for me to stop and reflect… I was avoiding some internal conflict by just keeping busy.
We also have had to set some boundaries - although our home is always open… sometimes we are not there! One afternoon/evening each week the four of us go out together, one day each week Julie and I have lunch together, on Saturdays we try to hang out together. Three or four times a year I escape for two or three days solitude - I’m still learning what that’s about after a number of years! As well as a family hiloday this year, Julie will take a holiday with girlfriends and I’ll stay home with the kids.
The bottom line is that we need to live life in Christ with integrity - be faithful to who He has created, gifted and called each of us to be… while not making our own preferences an excuse to avoid things we know we ought to do. The body needs each one of us to honestly stay connected, as He designed each of us and His body to be… just be the best you that you can be…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
I feel like the guy who horns in on the discussion after it has been going on for an hour, but I’ll have a crack.
I think house church is only effective when there is real hospitality taking place (like Celtic Son was talking about) and the house welcomes everybody, not just people like us. And with any church, there is genuine accountability toward becoming disciples of Jesus. In other words, as Alan and others have said, not just doing the traditional service in a house instead of a cathedral.
I also think the discussion about nuclear family is a generation late. The nuclear family is going the way of the dodo. Single/seperate parents are now the norm for a majority of Western children. Which is why third places are so key for younger people, because often those communities are more “families” for them than their “first” place is.
But, this presents a problem for me, who has a nuclear family with four kids aged 2-11. Most third places don’t welcome children and empty wallets. The best we have been able to come up with is to make our home a third place for people who don’t have a third place.
Any suggestions?
I need to be brutally honest here. As I look around my situation i keep wondering who in the world is going to buy into what Alan is saying in his book. People are materialistic and consumeristic. They have bought into focus in on the family teaching and their heels are dug in. Most teenagers I know (Christian and non Christian) are consumers. In our circles a Christian parent is happy if their kids are buying “Christian music.” Somehow they have equated that with being on the right track. They (the parent) have done their job if their kids buy Christian music and attend a youth group somewhere. Even if you go to the hurting they are still children of this materialistic society. They still want all the goodies…… who in the world wants discipleship….. when we have other choices.
Hell, even this conversation is not being true to what Alan is saying in his book. If I read it right it is saying we NEED NEW structures if we are to move forward. We need somehow to forge a new way forward. We need organic strucures. Yet this conversation is being dominated by those who do not want to leave the traditional church model….. who in fact do not want to develop organic strucures. And they are digging in their heels. And those of us who have left are relagated to giving advice to those who won’t leave.
I think it was “Shaping” that said the jury is still out on whether this emerging church will go forward or will die. One of the contributing factors will be people risking and leaving the traditional way of church. If I was given a thousand dollars for every time I heard, “Frank I agree with you but I am staying in the church to try and make changes,” I tell you I’d be a rich man. Five years later their churches have not changed one iota.
Look I think there is a place for respectable discussion for those of us in the tradition church and those out of it. With all due respect to those who have felt the need to stay in the traditional church, I would like to see this discussion now move to what the book is saying. I need a place to discuss this….. that is, what the book is saying….
Alan perhaps you can start up a second blog where we are discussing what the book is saying.. a way to move forward or convince Neil Cole to start one up himself. It will be a site where we are dreaming of new ways and getting councel from those who have left and are building the new…
I know I am going to get crucified for this. Does anyone know of a site that is given exclusively to this new way. By someone who isn’t disrespectful and not focusing in on the big bad IC.
Well, Lance, I think I was that gal (the horn near the end of a long discussion..) but, i wanted to say that we are in the same situation–4 kids (2-12), no funds–and, little energy! I think what we’ve been finding is that the extended-family motif is useful here. A couple families with older kids care for our younger while the adults go to some of these places. If you go with a group, you don’t always have to buy something, either. We are just wanting to be where our neighbors go, so they know we want to be with them–and don’t judge them. Then, they are more comfortable hanging out with us in other contexts in our neighborhood. Also, one neighbor opens the middle school gym once-a-week and a bunch of them get together for basketball. So, we’re interacting on many levels with people in the community. Opening the home, as you suggested is definitely big, too. I like how you called it a “third place for people who don’t have a third place.” Our problem is that as pastors in a church in which many are loath to consider drinking ok, we have to be almost secretive about going to some of these places. I know that sounds so wack, but, the time is at hand–I don’t feel we can wait for people already ’saved” to understand, while our neighbors don’t want anything to do with Jesus because they feel judged. I would welcome any thoughts here, too!
Frank, there are some of us who take this very seriously. Wolfgang Simpson is one… I don’t know if he has a blog…I’m blog-maxed as it is! The cacophony of materialism may be loud, but there is an undercurrent of simple and sacrifical living out there. You just have to get quiet enough to hear it.
…can you hear it yet? (Not to be confused with “Can you hear me now…)
Frank… In 2006, my wife and I left pastoral ministry in typical/traditional churches(after 21 years). God is now making us wait while He teaches us how to do genuine pastoral ministry and shapes us as his disciples. It is an odd experience… no longer feeling like you are part of that “fraternity”. But, to be perfectly honest, I am willing (indeed… thankful and excited) to let go of those associations and that status… “But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss for the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage that I may know Christ…”
So Frank, to you I say, “I understand your frustrations… and rest assured that there are others going down that lonely road, too.”
Mark
Lance…
I think you are right about the discussion on “nuclear family” being a generation late… the point is though that, typically in the western church, we still are prone to teach this as God’s model for the family. Your point adds value to our need to redefine family, in that broader biblical/hebraic/ holistic sense - otherwise we are preaching “nuclear”, as if it is God’s sole plan, to a group of people, many (becoming the majority) who don’t and will never live in that type of family environment.
The authentic church has an opportunity to become family, including those - like you and Nicole - who have the “nuclear family” but encounter limitations, including those who experience a sense of isolation in the breakdown of the nuclear ideal, including people who are single, people who are struggling etc. There is a price to pay for developing this - someone previously noted that a person had stolen from them… we have experienced that too… I don’t think Jesus did any better in the treasurer department! We can’t make our negative experiences an excuse for not moving forward, in the way that Christ intends for His body to move…
Frank…
you make a good point about the pervasive influence of material consumerism, but I think your frustration pushes your point beyond fair. Setting up another “either/or” dichotomy is not helpful or destined to be particularly fruitful… I do understand your desire to engage with people who have fully embraced Alan’s thinking. It may be a good thing to have a blog dedicated to those who are engaging with TFW, but it would also be helpful to this blog to have contributions from people like you, pushing things along… I don’t think this conversation so much seeks to be true to what Alan suggests in his book as it does to ask the question, “how do we get there from here?”
If I had “a thousand dollars for every time I heard, “I am sick of the way we do church so I’m leaving to find/do something better,” I tell you I’d be a rich man. The fact that someone is sick enough to leave doesn’t mean that they’re well enough to engage in or develop something new… The majority of people I know who have left church dissatisfied, are now not connected anywhere at all… including those who intended to start something new. For several the “new” thing didn’t work and so they’ve bailed completely, for others leaving originally was just an excuse to bail out anyway… Unlike some others I don’t necessarily see leaving as a positive in itself… too many people don’t ever go on to being fruitful in life… just negative about their experience of the church. I don’t accept the concept of a “churchless faith;” faith in Christ has to be expressed in terms of connection to His body, we are not created for isolation, though I do agree that it is vital that we redefine what “church” means, the problems need to become our motivation to move forward, rather than an excuse to bail out on Christ.
As one of the people who regularly contributes to this blog (I do understand that my view of things is skewed by my own framework, and this is essentially self-justification!) I think your comment “this conversation is being dominated by those who do not want to leave the traditional church model….. who in fact do not want to develop organic strucures” is drawing an unfair conclusion. There are many reasons for people not leaving traditional structures and many, even though they are still within traditional structures, would love to see the organic develop. As I read it the conversation is at present predominantly focussed there, if there is a criticism it would be that there is too much talk without action, but I reckon that people opting into the conversation at least have an interest in change.
As you noted the jury is still out on the emerging church - many of us have seen various emphases come and go, over the seasons of church life. The question remains about whether this is simply another seasonal fad… a “wind of doctrine.” Are we attempting to jump out of the frying pan into the fire? There is a need for early adopters to begin the process and typically a swell will follow their leading… if it bears fruit that gives an indication that it will last. Personally, I have a whole bunch of people around me that I love and I’m not prepared to abandon, based on an idea I think might be right… so we’re trying to develop a model that transitions people. I’m also part of a group who have just begun meeting to discuss TFW, asking questions about how the church Alan frames might look in our community - with a view to coming to a conclusion, that enables us begin to translate our being church into doing something. It’s not a case of “either/or” rather a time for “both/and…”
There are a number of people doing hybrid things that have validity in a time of uncertainty and transition. The majority of people in the traditional church are not necessarily unwilling to change, they don’t even consider that there is a possibility of change, primarily because they haven’t been exposed to it. They need to see reasons why they should change and until we can give valid models and examples they won’t change… this discussion is about articulating the framework, learning from one another what is truly a biblical essential and what is just the cultre of another era that we need to discard, so that we can reshape and restructure…
While the “institutional” focus of the church has got bent out of shape, the problem is the responsibility of the leadership, rather than the whole church per se… predominantly people have simply exercised the ability to be lazy and not think for themselves. This is the position that most people are encouraged in by our western culture, and a church leadership, often seeking status from controlling power, has encouraged it further. Many of the people in existing churches need direction from emerging leadership, before they will ever transition to a new place… for the majority that would tend to happen within the framework they are already in. I believe that many can and will transition, given the right leadership. So, while there is a place for those who have left and are building the new, there is also a place for those who are attempting to transition - despite Alan’s concerns about the difficulty of that.
There is also a place to get involved in simultaneous projects, there is a place for people who need to have ALL the facts before they make a choice, there is a place for people who are followers, those who are late adopters etc… You are right that there will always be a bunch of people “who in fact do not want to develop organic structures,” I’d suggest the reality is that those people are not contributing to this conversation, much less dominating it. It’s also not the nature of the majority of contributors to this blog… though, like I’ve acknowledged, that is me justifying my own viewpoint - perhaps others think differently?
I also don’t read Alan saying we “NEED NEW structures” as much as he is saying we need RENEWED structures. We are agreeing that what exists in the “institutional church” is not what Jesus Christ or the early church intended by “ecclesia.” The problem I find with some things that are “NEW” is that there’s a “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.” Things that are essential to the nature of ecclesia are fair game for disposal, along with the traditions that the institutional church has superimposed. Alan proposes a return to what was originally intended, so there is a pre-existing structure that we need to rediscover and interpret in our context, there are boundaries and frameworks that encompass the will of God. To validate what we are doing we need to connect it with an understanding of what Jesus, the New Testament and the early church defines as “ecclesia,” not just come up with novel ways of gathering people just because the prior ways were wrong… That’s where discussions like this are vital and where I have a concern about taking the “emerging” conversation out of the context of “church,” it is an area where people like Wolfgang Simson, Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost are invaluable… It’s also where the contributors to this blog - whom I’ve agreed with at times and not at others - have been incredible in helping me work out my thinking… how does this stuff actually apply to where I am at right now?
I don’t think you need to be crucified Frank, there are elements of what you’re saying I don’t agree with - but that’s what genuine dialogue is all about - if I just conversed with people who agree with me I would never grow. I suspect you have a prophetic bent which is frustrated because you are already “seeing” in a dimension yet to be achieved. I hope you’ll continue to bring your brutal honesty to TFW blog, otherwise in 5 years time I and others like me may still be having the same conversation and never have moved into action. We need one another…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Frank, I too hear your frustration. No I know it very personally. But you know, something did happen to me between the writing of Shaping and TFW. I did feel that the idea of latest potentials in the church meant that we can never abandon the established church to its own insitutiional impulses but that we must prophetically love and engage God’s people, even when it hurts and frustrates.
I know enough of you story to be very impressed by your own courage. Don’t lose heart in using your story to stir God’s people up to their own true destiny–to awken dangerous memories.
Stay true!
Thank you Mark and Peggy and Alan for your understanding. Celtic… I have obviously and totally misread what Alan has been saying in his book. I read that the western church is based on the Christendom model and goes on to say that that wasn’t a good thing. The church should not be institutional and traditional. He uses the Chinese and early church as his example of what the church movement needs to look like. Now no one in his right mind would ever say that we need to copy those but they offer us the way forward. He then quotes extensively the example of Neil Cole’s organic churches. Furthermore, he goes on to list the 5 things that would empower a movement. Discipleship, apostolic leadership, missional, organic structures and communitas. Furthermore to the furthermore, Alan quotes (on his blog) Ellul and O’Connor, who say things like, “God is the God of beginnings. The church must be fluid, mobile creative and…….. The church must experiment. It must adventure out where there are no tried and tested ways…… It cannot do this if it is held captive by structures. Now I am not commenting on whether you agree with Ellul or O’Connor or Alan but I am commenting on the way I have read “Forgotten Ways” Obviously I am wrong.
I am not saying here that there isn’t need for discussion and respect with those in the traditional church. What I am saying is this: If I go to an Organic church conference, I hope to high heaven the discussion will be about organic church and how to move forward. Not about how we can change the structures we know that aren’t working. (source of this comment….Michael Frost, Neil Cole and Alan Hirsch and Frank Doiron and many others). Similarily, if I read a book like “Forgotten” I would hope that the discussion would be how to move forward in what he is saying. Obviously this is not the case. This is more of a discussion on mission generally. That’s fine. I just want to know if there are sites that help us to move forward into a movement. I know there are conferences but I cannot afford to go to all the conferences that are offered out there….. I am not mad at anyway. All I am (still) saying is that this conversation is not staying true to what Alan is proposing in his book
At some point the discussion is going to have to move to action. Neil Cole is doing a great job. There are many who are attempting this also but are alone. We need discussion on how to move forward. We need connections. We need godly counsel from those from others and so on.
I wish you the best in your attempts to try and change your churches but there are those of us who have tasted the ocean….. we want to invest our lives in restoring Christianity as a movement……. Our hearts and spirits are over flowing with this new vision…. That is where we want to invest our time, energy and financial resources…. I want a place to discuss the way forward in this. This is not that place……….. I am not saying I will never comment here again but I need an equipping channel that helps me move in an organic path…..
Frank (et al)… Rather than trying to lay out what the Lord is doing in us (and eventually through us) I will point you to my blog. If your interested please check it out…
http://www.barnabasandnaomi.blogspot.com
Mark
Franks, again I hear you, except I feel that I cannot make this blog exclusively about developing new forms–of which the organic would be just one, even if it is the major one.
I have precious little time to get into these discussions and, when I do, it seems I am completely misinterpreted, so I try to stay out of it. But, it’s hard to stay away from something so near to my heart.
Still, the reason I don’t have time to blog about missional is because being missional consumes the whole of my life. Not complaining, really. I love my life and I’m excited by what’s happening. But my point is that in order for a movement to get a solid foundation, it has to engage itself in doing what it is that it says it is all about, not just sit around playing armchair theologians.
Attractional churches survive because they find effective ways to do what they do - attract. I don’t agree with the system, but unless we start doing what we say we are about - being missional - we won’t survive. If we think we have to have an organization in order to be missional, we will have already defeated our goal, because we will be serving the organization first and leaving the remaining crumbs to feed the mission, which is precisely why it is so difficult for attractional churches to truly become missional. Is organization necessary? Maybe, maybe not. But, if it is, let it form around the mission; don’t create the form and then expect mission to fit it.
I’m not saying that we should abandon the IC’s, but some of us must forge the way without them, while others must stay behind and help the IC’s to make the transition. This is not an either/or, the Body of Jesus is in this together whether we want to be or not.
Webb, as with Frank, I actually agree. We spend way too much time and energy on trying to revive the system and with precious little to show for it. Church planting and mission is clearly THE strategic option in our day. I just don’t wish to abandon what God has clearly not abandoned.
One People of God, different expressions of Church.
Maybe the best way to help the IC would be starting something completely new, so they could see what it would be like (in their neighborhood). Then it would be easier for them when they see where they are going.
It would be important for those who start the new thing though not to judge the IC and keep good relations with the people inside.
Does anyone think what Jesus said about new and old wineskins applies here?
Espen, I agree totally. One of the favourtite slogans I have adopted is “the best critique of the bad is the practice of the better”
Yes Epsen! Still praying for you for Monday.
Picking up Frank’s comments… I wonder if there’s a possiblity of having a thread here that is more or less dedicated to practitioners discussing how they are applying TFW principles in an organic church context?
The democratic nature of the web means anyone can jump in…. but maybe it could be tried?
I think under the Spirit of God the organic missional church is going to look like a million different things so I’m not convinced such a discussion will “show how to move forward into a movement”… (if you want to understand an ecosystem, you don’t focus excessively on just a few plants or animals in it)… it might be more a “taster” of how God is moving in different places. I think Alan would affirm there is already a movement that is moving forward as various people all over the world are listening to the Spirit and expressing mission with “new wineskins”.
When my organic missional church planting journey launches (this summer?), I believe that I will need to start an associated blog…and would certainly welcome those who are fellow-practitioners…not that I could remotely begin to compare to Alan, but you all would certainly be welcome!
And, Espen, I have been praying for you and hope your exams went well! Be blessed, brother.
Blessings, all.
Frank…
My post doesn’t seek to call into question the adequacy of your understanding of Alan’s book, it wasn’t my intention and I’m not sure how you gained that perspective from what I wrote - perhaps you misunderstood my post? I read Alan’s book as presenting a framework for those, like you, who seek to do something new AND ALSO as a prophetic polemic to the existing church. There are others, like me, who are in churches who read Alan’s writing as bringing fresh fire to our hope to transition forwards, which Alan suggests happens by going backwards. At the risk of labouring the point it’s about “both/and” rather than “either/or.”
In the post I responded to, you began with the comment that you intended to be “brutally honest” - it’s great to be prepared to have a robust conversation and to expect challenges… yet you didn’t respond to the challenges I presented to your post - heading off instead in a different direction. Your first post criticises the framework of consumerism in the church .. but in the second your conclusion is that you “need”a blog that caters to you? Slow down and search your soul about the consumerism that is inherent in the expression of the need you want met. You want answers, yet are critical of some people trying to work through the questions… The discussion here is predominantly about moving forward in what Alan is saying… but that also includes a critical awareness of how we might actually make that happen. Jesus himself makes the point about preparing all the means to complete a job before you start it.
From my perspective there is a conversation going on here about how we can apply “discipleship, apostolic leadership, missional, organic structures and communitas” in a way that keeps “Jesus is Lord” at the centre. But it is a conversation that carries across a whole range of topical elements that Alan introduces to kick off each thread. There are many people already involved in action… and much of what has been shared across the threads is missional and incarnational AND has a Sunday church service attached. They are not mutually exclusive…
At the end of the day what’s important in defining the church is, that we are bearing fruit consistent with who Jesus calls us out to be. I could recite a list of missional practices that we are involved in in our community - to such an extent that the local chamber of commerce approached us for support for a local community event. The authentic church of Jesus Christ is always emerging… it’s not a generational brand that can just be applied now…
I come to this blog to contribute what I can, I don’t come just to find what I think I need… What I contribute comes from who I am (in Christ) and from my life experience. I don’t come as an armchair theologian, I don’t come to find agreement, I come to discuss, to challenge and to be challenged and I generally learn something from the exchanges, I often come away inspired and motivated by the input of many others. In all honesty Frank, if you have “tasted the ocean” why are you not swimming in it and contributing from the perspective of your experience there? I hope you find what you are looking for and can find your way to invest in others… perhaps your frustration is sufficient impetus to start the blog that you need to find?
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Webb,
I agree that the organisational must always serve the organic; the organism has support systems - the system supports, but the life is in the organism. Once there is more than one person involved in anything we need communication, leadership and organisation. Leadership - albeit in an apostolic (five-fold) framework - is a necessity. In Christ’s kingdom we need to continually remind ourselves that leadership serves… it is not a position, it is a description of how we respond to Christ’s model of leadership, namely serving with His life… so we serve with ours, in thankfulness for His grace.
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Janet and Peggy, thanks for praying. Two of my three exams went very well I think, the third, well, I hope it went ok
All in all I believe I have a good chance to continue here next year.
Thank you again, I’ll have my results end of june, I’ll tell you when I know.
End of June! That’s a long wait.
Grace and blessings to you Epsen.
Espen, you have somehow got a prayer group going here. Fantastic eh?
Thank you Celtic for your comments. Actually my second comment was based on my perception of how this conversation was going and not on your comments. I thought your comments were fair and gracious. I have been on the internet now for 5 years and people like to discuss and discuss and discuss. That’s fine. Perhaps I have issued the challenge not so much because I have a prophetic bent but because I am an older follower of Christ. I had been part of the institutional church for almost 25 years. We would discuss the need for change but there was too much resistance. I heard sermon after sermon about how we should reach out but nothing changed. I have been part of house churches but they wanted nothing to do with mission. It wasn’t even community. It was a 2 hour meeting once a week.
I would say that my wife and I are quite involved in being missional. We are helping single moms when their churches virtually ignored them. We planned and raised money with a couple of these single moms to go to work with orphans in Peru. We did that this past Christmas. When we got back we decided to continue to raise money for the children. Two other couples have joined us since. We are planning a road hockey (yes i am Canadian)tournament in the fall where we hope to raise 30 thouand dollars. We invited a lady who travels to Africa to come to our little group, last week, to help orphans. 100% of what we give goes to helping these orphans. So we are raising money to help these children.
I know that Webb is also heavily involved in helping orphans in the Ukraine. He has been an insiration to me.
I believe the best way for African orphans is to make more disciples here. And that is why we need a more practical, hands on kind of discussion rather than abstract discussion. Where I may differ with Webb is that not everyone is a go getter. Most people need that equipping arm and a nework of people around them to become motivated……. If we are going to be missional we will need an eqipping arm…. i have to get to work….. but Celtic I love your heart….. Keep doing what you are doing. For me abstract discussion is good but there is way too much of it (that is for me)………… But I guess for many it is part of your discipleship….
Yeah, I am blessed
Celtic, The way I see it, which doesn’t mean that it is correct ;), I believe that even the 5 fold ministries are much more organic in nature than we want to make them. What I mean is that I don’t see them as positions necessarily recognized and appointed by men, but by God. People have these gifts and they use them even if they are unaware that they use them, and sometimes even if the church in general is unaware that they are in use–arguably the best way.
Yes, I believe that eventually APEPT will be recognized, because I see that transition happening with our loosely organized community. But, it could very well be that we will never reach the point of institutionalization in a church sense because of the diversity of people who feel led by God to help in our mission. We have teachers from a Catholic special needs school, doctors and nurses from children’s hospitals, some long haul truckers, a stock broker, a bunch of rock and roll musicians, a group of Amish carpenters, volunteers from many United Methodist Churches from around the US and Ukraine, as well as Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, those of us who are unaffiliated with organized religion, including people we’ve met in bars… and so on. I love it! In our midst we have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and no one has said, “Okay, Susie, we’ve elected you to be an evangelist.” It all kinda just happens. Are we right to keep it so loose? Time will tell, I suppose, but so far, it is fostering an uncanny tendency for people to dream dreams and see visions pertaining to their role in it all without the aid of some elite group delegating authority or sensing the need to place their endorsement on any of it. Yet, the pieces of the puzzle are taking shape more and more all the time
I sometimes think we stifle vision and volunteerism with too many man made restrictions and way too much organization. In such an environment, people grow afraid to act on their own, and I believe, squelch the spontaneity and inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the process. I’m not saying that this is the right way nor the only way; and I’m sure to some that it looks like we’re on a wild goose chase–which to some extent we are–but sometimes we get so blessed by what God is doing despite ourselves that all we can do is to fall down in the middle of a field and laugh hysterically.
Frank: I’m with you, bro, on the not everyone being a go-getter. Personally, I think the whole missional paradigm is still mostly in the prophetic visionary stage. God has raised up the prophets, and the villagefolk are wary of them. But people perish for lack of vision, and it will take some time for everyone to grasp the vision and we must be patient. That is why I have faith that much–not all-of the institutional church will eventually get on board.
As for the followers or non-go-getters-they will follow. They will be the ones that eventually put the hands and feet to all of our collective prophetic ramblings and make missional happen. I hope I get to see that day. I am seeing them awaken in their old churches more and more all the time and I’m excited by it.
Well, Alan…you know what they say about women and prayer groups
They are the primary advancers of the Kingdom Peg. I have little doubt. Thanks for your prayers for us all.
Frank…
you haven’t just tasted the ocean - you’re in there swimming mate. I’m the one who misunderstood and I apologise… I do recall a warning about making ASSumptions!
You have the nucleus of a movement in your hands Frank… you’re already ahead of many of us. Three couples in mission together giving 100% of the funds raised to missional endeavours, organising fund raising events which will be in the public doma