hitting the road with jesus
We are all familiar with the gospel stories where Jesus selects a band of disciples, lives his life with them, ministers with them, and mentors them. This approach to the formation of followers was common in the Israel of Jesus’ day. Most rabbis would initiate and develop their schools of thought through similar means. It was this life-on-life phenomenon that facilitated the transfer of information and ideas into concrete historical situations. We have already explored this a bit in the previous 8 posts, we simply need to note here that this is the way that Jesus formed his disciples and that we should not think that we could generate authentic disciples in any other way.
Few would deny that in our day we have a crisis in leadership in the church in the West. We find ourselves facing an adaptive challenge that will necessitate a certain type of leadership to be able to guide us through the complexities of the 21st century. In my thinking, this type of leadership can be been tagged “missional.” And it is missional leadership that we need. The problem is that most of our training institutions are geared towards training a more maintenance-type leader. One has only to survey the types of subjects and the people teaching them for the point to be proved. If we are going to learn from the dangerous witness of the Jesus movements and attempt to gear ourselves around Apostolic Genius, then we simply have to find ‘the better way’ of forming leaders.
(We will explore this together over the next few posts. )
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Well, I’m very intrigued to find out where this ends up Alan - although I’ve got the feeling it’s not going to be as comfortable as I’d like.
But then, that’s always the point, isn’t it.
Some thoughts…
First, our educational view as disciples is intellectually oriented rather then life oriented.
Second, many of our leaders appear to be more comfortable with “teaching” rather then living with their disciples; maybe personal space/individualism issues. They also seem uncomfortable with the idea of deliberately engineering their own redundancy into their discipling. It is interesting to note Jesus spends quite a bit of time preparing his disciples for Him not being around any longer.
Third, I think both teachers and disciples would find living such a transparent walk with each other incredibly uncomfortable. Jesus is not always a “nice leader” to follow. I frequently cringe when I picture myself receiving some of the words coming from Jesus towards the disciples.
Alan…
…a main concern (and we’ll hopefully talk more about this when our mutual schedules slow down a bit in November)is that most leadership development does not consider the whole person…only the task or role. Following Jesus through several trips through the Gospels the past few months, what he models for his disciples…and for us, his disciples…involved more than just outcomes…but trans-formed…re-imagined…re-created lives. I welcome your next posts. Prayers continuing for you and your bride.
PS…so good being with you and Michael in Denver last weekend. Thank you!
Alan,
I just spent the last few days going through TFW and making notes (I had loaned it to a friend…for three months!), so this is all fresh in my mind as I prepare to retrofit CovenantClusters with everything for which I’ve been given “vocabulary” and “graphic representations” over the past eight months.
This is very timely, again, as those of us who will be attending Allelon’s Missional Order Gathering contemplate this very kind of thing.
Hitting the road with Jesus, indeed…and with each other–which may be even more challenging (eh, Richard?
).
Richard.. “I think both teachers and disciples would find living such a transparent walk with each other incredibly uncomfortable”
That reminded me of this funny story:
http://www.larknews.com/april_2007/secondary.php?page=1
Yep, we need leaders whose primary tool is not the pulpit!
Well Alan, you already know my thoughts on the subject, that I struggle to see the value in theological degrees given I’ve learnt more about missiology than most pastors who do have them. Calls the entire exercise into question imo, suggesting that being discipled in the field is much more effective than sitting in a classroom.
So for me the question for me is more a case of, what now then? I note that missiology is still very much an elective at Morling College even with Mike Frost as 2IC. How does this bode for nurturing an apostolic environment? What can people like us do to help shift the situation?
I agree with Matt…now what? what do we do with that in very practical terms?
This type of living life together I experienced in college in the summer while living in Mexico in tents with 15 other people I had only recently met. The uncomfortableness of it was apparent after the first few days of excitement of being on a new adventure had worn off. There was little to hide when we were living in the dirt, with only a thin layer of nylon for privacy. But over time many of the superficial was left to the side… after moving each week to a new location our lives became intertwined and the uncomfortableness wore off. There was a time of tension as the excitement moved to oh this isn’t just temporary, to this is the best thing ever to happen. Some of the people that I spent that summer with (although this was 15 years ago) still have had the biggest impact on my relationship and life in Christ. Living in close community is huge… unfortunately we fight and push against it.
I would like to add a bit here. From some of Alan’s work in TFW I know that we will get there, but we need to consider a couple of items. First, when we are looking at initiating something, we get the opportunity to set it up the way we wish it to be the first time. When we are in a position to need to change an existing institution, we can either kill it and start over or take a more parallel approach.
I believe that there are a number of the more institutional training solutions that know change is coming, and even have a good idea of what that change may look like, but need to move slowly in order to have a voice in the coming changes. This is not necessarily bad.
Yes, the changes will be uncomfortable. I have found that my thinking processes and ideas for change in the way we do leadership and discipleship are not very comfortable to my wife (not actually a surprise), and that part of the leavening on the ideas is her balance and different outlook to help me not go off too fast in a direction not yet ready for prime-time. This journey we are on with Alan is also part of that leavening.
Blessings all! Looking forward to seeing you next week Peggy! And anyone else coming to the Allelon event.
First I’ll say that I am a holder of a theological degree. At the seminary where I attended they are asking these very same questions. In fact there is a group of seminaries asking what missional seminary education looks like.
Allelon is sponsoring it. Admittedly the process is a lengthy one. The best course of action is not to focus energy on being angry at the shortcomings of the educational process, but instead focus on sowing into and nurturing more leaders through authentic discipleship.
The seminaries will eventually figure themselves out in their own way and in their own time.
Good discussion here, brothers!
We are back to where we always come…how shall we then live?
What we must do is realize that discipleship is not something we can “learn” in our heads…it is something we must “learn” with our whole selves.
This goes back to the Christocentric Monothesism thread and the Jesus is LORD reality for which we have signed on as fully-devoted Christ-followers. The stripping away of the compartmentalism and individualism is frightening and challenging. Any experience that shocks us into liminality will be. But it is the recovering of that liminality that makes room for communitas. And entering into liminal zones with an eye toward the Holy Spirit igniting Apostolic Genius is key.
Here again we see the tension of the already/not yet of the paradox that is God…we already “get” some of it, but we are not yet “experiencing” it fully. Some outposts of the Body of Christ are way ahead of us here…but there is significant movement of the Holy Spirit toward bring us along.
Certainly, Allelon’s gathering next week is evidence of that…and there are many other groups doing the same thing elsewhere. Some of us can start fresh, while others–as Richard pointed out–have to struggle with the adaptive parallels.
All of this takes time…but that takes me back to the start of this comment. We need to embrace the fact that making disciples takes a long time. We have wanted to make it quicker…and we are paying for this short-sightedness with a dearth of truly equipped disciple-makers.
We go back to the numbers that I have seen confirmed time and time again: 50% of those who are not fully discipled fail in leadership. This is just not an acceptable number.
And so we embrace a new view…and we must then submit to the Holy Spirit as he guides us to act our way into this new way of thinking and being and living and serving. This is the cross that we are called to pick up and bear. It is not a walk in the park…but it is the journey of The Way.
Those who are further down the road or up the hill, who get a glimpse of that “not yet” place must keep coming back and sharing what we have seen and heard to inspire more and more of us to embrace the life of faith that works out the law of Love.
I CAN ALMOST SEE IT AROUND THE BEND….I can smell and taste it in the air…I can feel it in my bones…I hear it being shouted here and whispered there. The Spirit is on the move….
Looking forward to seeing you next week, Richard!
Blessings
Alan,
I believe in Jesus’ method of discipleship, of course. I just want to press you a bit on your point that “we should not think that we could generate authentic disciples in any other way.”
In the book of Acts, we certainly see conversion happening in a much different way. Good works are done (healings and the like), the gospel is preached and taught, and people believe, repent, and are baptized–usually in a fairly short amount of time. Then there was post-conversion teaching–a form of discipleship–done by Paul and others in the churches that they established. Is this not a valid model today?
Certainly, in a postmodern world, discipleship (living the Christian faith) will come before conversion and intellectual acceptance. If both methods are valid, then our culture still points towards Jesus’ method.
In a postmodern world, the order in which Matthew’s version of the Great Commission is given is an effect order for reaching people today.
Go–missional thought of going where people are
Make disciples–calling people to come alongside and start following Jesus, to live the Christian life
Baptize them–this overt act of conversion will often happen after they begin living the Christian life
Teaching them to obey–giving deeper instruction and training for discipleship, including going back out
Of course, I am not sure if the Great Commission is intending to give a sequential order for making disciples. To look only at this and disregard Jesus’ process of disciple-making in the gospels is totally off-based. But we do seem to see other methods at least in sequence in the rest of the NT.
Your thoughts?
James,
Do you think there is a difference between discipling believers and discipling leaders? I wonder if that is the underlying issue here?
Jesus discipled many–up to 120?–yet the 12, and within that the 3, were involved in a way that we don’t see happening with the others.
Perhaps we’re lumping together that which is more subtle?
Hullo-o-o…
“it’s been a long time between drinks!” I have dropped into the blog and been tempted to contribute but life is particularly hectic. However, this topic touches the heart of some of the elements that contribute to my hectic life…
Peggy is right (as she frequently is) when she resolves back to the basic question “how shall we then live?” The danger of blogging is that we can get so caught up venting our opinions that we never actually engage in the world. So, to coin a phrase, ” to be absent from blogging is to be present with the world!” which is generally where you’ll find me…
A number of things have kept me busy - recognising my own limitations has led me to engage in post-grad studies in leadership, on a distance-ed model, with regular week long intensive study on site, which I’m engaged in while leading a family and a church community. I’m also recognising the limitations of the post-grad studies framework - which rather than being based on the maintenance model Alan suggests, has (positively) looked in other directions and (negatively) built on “biblicised” business concepts! I do find myself questioning whether “missional seminary education” is in fact an oxymoron at several levels?
As a consequence I’m involved in beginning the development of a “missional leadership network,” that is not seminary based, with other local church leaders - one of whom has had my copy of TFW for the past few weeks. A group of six church leaders are gathering with a colleague who is a former church leader, with post grad training in areas of eclessiology, and who could operate in a coaching role. We’ll discuss missional principles - based on Newbiggin, Robinson, Hirsch et al - and plan how we can each apply particular principles, related to our own locale, or engage in research to discover the perceived needs of our community or whatever (I’m trying not to predict too much the shape things will take). We’ll invite the coach to spend time with each of us in our environments, observe, reflect and initiate discussion based on what we are each doing. Later we’ll gather again as a group and each discuss the process thus far and see what we can learn from and contribute to one another.
At the same time we’re developing a process for engaging young leaders 18-25 in discipleship that is missionally focussed. This has been discussed and some funds contributed and will involve input from the missional leaders network, and may also involve some aspects of the Forge training resources. It’s all in early stages, but underway… and we’re not expecting to add water throw in the microwave and have “instant missional leader.” We’re aiming to lay foundations for generations to come…
In response to Peggy’s question I do think there is a different approach required between the discipleship of believers and the discipleship of leaders. However, the danger the church has fallen into is in projecting them as hierarchical, when the truth is that a leader may have more responsibility, but they have no more value in God’ s eyes than those who simply and obediently follow. The sad consequence is pride in those called to lead and also that many people who do not have a capacity for leadership, force themselves into leadership on the basis of learned techniques, because of a need for approval…
The question is :what does a missional leader” look like? What is the difference between missional leadership and maintentance? What defines a missional leader in ways that an attractional leader can understand and then move towards?
In terms of “Biblical modelling” I tend to read the majority of New Testament texts predominantly reporting things as they happened in their particular context, rather than being designed to prescribe a general sequence for future believers to adhere to. The order of occurence is less relevant than the fact of occurence - so everything occurs, but the process of occurence can tend towards uniqueness, based on a variety of contextual issues.
The bottom line, as Alan encourages us, is that we need to be “doing life” with Jesus and sharing the love with those around us; we are called to be modelling, apprenticing, investing, sowing, watering, loving… are we… are you… am I…?
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Much of the spiritual growth I have experienced has taken place in relationship. My growth has not been in a worship service, not from a sermon, not from a “laying-on-of-hands”, but sitting around a table with a mug of coffee or pint of beer. There I expressed my doubts, fears, hopes dreams and then listened to others do the same. From there we cared for each other, prayed for each other, became a shoulder to cry on and the high five to live on together. We yell at each other, call each other jack asses and such, but in these close and bruising, calming relationships I grow. The daily life of living together in community creates an atmosphere for God to grow us together in Christ.
The difficulty I have with a lot of the present de-emphasis on seminary/formal education and the emphasis on doing life together types of discipleship is that I came out of Baptist/Pentecostal worlds where there was little of the former and a lot of the latter emphasized.
Seminary was suspect. Have passion. Action.
Only when I got to college I realized that in 20 years of Christian teaching no one had taught me about Jesus, or the Scripture, or Church history, or theology or anything that would make my faith deep. I had been taught techniques of leadership, ways of evangelism, patterns of organization. In short I had been taught marketing but not Christianity.
Jesus and his band of followers did not debate leadership strategies or talk about organizational principles. They studies the Scriptures, intensely, daily. They wrestled over deep things. All the early apostles were masters of the Scriptures by the time their ministries started. The rabbinical pattern was heavy education, with massive study, much more like a seminary seminar than a chat at Starbucks once a week.
I think education can tend to dull passions at times. But, I’ve seen much, much, much more spiritual damage done by the non-educated. In their excitement they tear souls apart, claiming a knowledge and understanding they think they possess but really have mistaken passion for wisdom.
The fact is that just about all the great movements in history have been led by highly educated men and women (though not always educated in traditional settings). Wesley stands out to me as someone who was exceedingly academic and yet exceedingly missional.
Honestly after years and years of working with under-educated spiritual leaders I’m extremely wary about doing so ever again, mostly because in their lack of education they make the mistakes that have been made in the past.
Yet, I also think that requiring advanced degrees just to learn about our faith is a massive shame. We need discipling communities that teach the depths of who we are, just as Jesus taught and the disciples taught. Emphasizing major studies of Scripture and our history and who God is.
Too often, though, de-emphasizing formal education doesn’t bring this kind of real discipleship, but instead creates a barbarian horde, full of verve and dangerous to all around them. Sometimes great things are accomplished. Often the great things are surrounded by swaths of damage and destruction, which go entirely ignored by the passionate leaders seeking glory.
…well, it has been a while since the CyberGremlin has attacked me…but he just got a comment I’ve been working on for an hour
…sigh….
…lulled to sleep, I have abandoned the practice of “copying” a post before submitting…I have paid…
The not-nearly-as-passionate gist:
1. We just have to remember: don’t confuse God’s apparent blessing on your ministry with his stamp of approval of your methods.
2. It’s got to be a both/and deal, friends. We have to have experience and we have to get as deeply educated as we can…we never stop learning and we never stop doing. But don’t require the same learning and same experience–let the Holy Spirit lead the way according to the readiness level of the followers (see #1
) Patrick, there are some who have not been what most would consider “properly educated” whom God has used mightily and righteously…we just cannot make the exclusive claim for education. But I do hear you and know where you’re coming from, brother. Excesses are not automatically restrained by education (and it gives rise to its own kind)…and education does not automatically remove passion 
It must we wisdom that we must seek–that which takes all information and experience available in the circumstance and then makes the prayerful and godly response in submission to the Holy Spirit.
3. Just as Apostolic Genius must have all six components to ignite and the APEST model must be fully present and functioning in both the leadership and the members, we must have all the disciplines robustly represented to bring forth fully-devoted disciple-making disciples.
4. Microwave cooking is bad for food and bad for leadership training. Things do get hot quickly, but the “nutrients” are essentially killed by the process. Organic growth and nutritious soups take a long time…a long time. No short-cuts!
5. Taking a read through Philippians and Colossians (yes, the whole book…sheesh
)
Greetings and blessings–especially to CS. Yes, your absence from the blog has meant presence in ministry…but you have been missed, brother!
Patrick
I hear you there. While I question seminary style education and am committed to exploring more action-reflection (i.e. mentoring / apprenticeship) style approaches to discipleship, I do believe it is crucial that the action-reflection process include grounding in theology, church history, scripture and all the other things seminary education provides. It would be horrible to throw the baby out with the bath water. And as a former Catholic I totally grok what you are saying about the lack of historical depth amongst many Pentecostals (and many Evangelicals I would also add). Fortunately for me one of my chief mission field mentors was a college lecturer, so he brought that theological and historical depth to the process. But you raise a very valid point, shift in style should not justify a lapse in quality control. Should the standards we set for mentors be any less than that we set for lecturers? The ancient monastic systems had such quality control checks and balances in place, built up through centuries. We can hardly imagine we can put a quality system in place overnight. Particularly if we have a slap dash, anything goes, whatever works for me attitude. Where is the peer review process in the sort of mentoring we are advocating here?
Having had experience with other religions that operate in a more action-reflection fashion, such as Wicca and Zen Buddhism, I can tell you the systems we have in place within the emerging church are far less rigorous than theirs and we are really put to shame. In Wicca for instance, an initiate is mentored for a year and a day before they are even made a member, they are then mentored for a year before they can teach others, they are then mentored for a year minimum before they can even think about starting a cell group of their own. And we are talking about a cell group of 13 people max here. How many Christian small group leadership programs are so rigorous? They have to learn history, theory, ritual, demonstrate a thorough competency in practice. They’d consider some of our stuff complete fluff. And Wiccan requirements are easy next to the Buddhists. Think about that for a moment. The thing with their systems is they eventually train every member up to leader level. Every member! That’s what you call organizational DNA. That’s why their groups are growing so much exponentially faster in the west than Christian groups.
Now where can we actually begin with instituting a rigorous process in our home towns? Celtic Son, the question I have for you is, what about people like myself who are neither church leaders nor under 25? I find it hard to even find people willing to pray with me (so many in the local church just find I am at too far beyond their comfort zone) let alone join in a more rigorous, face to face, mentoring process. I’m particularly interested in joining with others in Sydney to do something like this, something real deep, but so far I just draw a blank. At the moment I gather with others on the path about once a quarter as you know, but I want something much much deeper. Much frustration from my end here.
Matt
Matt and Patrick,
All the more important that the emphasis bubbling up around the church about missional orders be prayed about diligently.
And, believe it or not, Matt…I really, really know something of the frustration that goes with the shoes you are standing in. Those with whom you would like to engage meaningfully in the deep things of Christ seem to not be comfortable with the challenge that you bring to the table. And though your experiences with Wicca and Zen Buddhism make them unconfortable, you have learned many important truths from them (and others, as well)–things that make you a better disciple of Jesus as you follow him as The Way.
Well, one doesn’t need esoteric/mystical connections to make people uncomfortable. For some of us gender is enough to stop the presses! The model out there in way too much of the church–emerging or institutional–still is very challenged as to what to do with women called to be disciples who make disciples.
We are hard to completely ignore, being 50% of the population, so we tend to be pidgeon-holed in “roles that are appropriate”…whatever that means…or patronized by those who will educate us but not allow us to serve with them…or rebuked as rebellious Jezebels, denying our gifts and calling, and refuse to educate us…and all things in between (you know something about in between places, eh?
)….
It is a powerful chain many of the brothers and sisters forge to keep so many of us from being a Mary in this world that really values Marthas….
Then, mercifully, there are the few places (like here) where we are accepted (although I’m sure that there are some here who merely tolerate me
)…too few and too far between, though.
Pray for me, if you would, as I attend the Missional Order gathering next week. There will be around 50 there…and maybe 5 women…maybe. Pray that I will be able to discern the voice of the Spirit and bring to the table those things God has burned into my heart and soul and mind concerning this important topic. Pray fervently, brothers (and any sisters out there)…because there are plenty of doubters concerning the vision for CovenantClusters from this…this AbiSomeone–but everything I have experienced and read over the past 13 months has only made me more certain that the boldness and clarity of the original vision was not over the top, impossible, or impractical.
What is “impractical” for YHWH??? These people obviously have not been reading their Scriptures
Be blessed, all…you are a blessing to me.
OMG…I’m sorry, but this so hysterical!!! The note following my name at #21 says “Your comment is awating moderation.” SpamBam tried to eat my comment, like earlier, but I saved it first this time! LOL…
Does this mean I am no longer welcome at TFW…
Too bad! 
Not at all. the devil is somewhere in the machine. Use your powers Pegs.
This thing has been playing up…as you know.
Fortunately I composed my last comment on microsoft word so I didn’t loose it when it crashed! It must be a Hillsong conspiracy.
“It is a powerful chain many of the brothers and sisters forge to keep so many of us from being a Mary in this world that really values Marthas….”
Ain’t that the truth.
There are some challenging thoughts expressed in response to this issue and a couple of questions raised about my earlier post… some of which have got me to thinking, so thank you for that. I appreciate a challenge, and I’m apt to respond in kind…
In response to Patrick’s concerns about a “de-emphasis on seminary/formal education” my concern is not with education per se, I agree with you that lack of wisdom and knowledge can inflict incredible damage. However I’ve also seen a great deal of damage done by people with seminary level theological training; in the past few months, sadly, three seminary-trained, local ministers have been removed from their roles for “moral failure”. I’m not convinced that seminary necessarily provides students with wisdom or knowledge, though it may be perceived that it has given them “an education.” My concern is with the extraction model we favour in the west. I am concerned that what we define as “knowledge” falls way short of the holistic nature of “knowledge” that the Bible intends. We fill our heads with information and assume we’ve learned something, when the Biblical concept is not so much one of education that is built on comprehension by observation, as it is apprehension by revelation and growth by encounter and experience.
I’d also say Patrick that a number of your responses are clearly passionate but also seem to bring “straw persons” to the discussion! Is it true that “just about all the great movements in history have been led by highly educated men and women?” Certainly some have, like those led by Wesley or Jonathan Edwards, but “just about all?” How did “pentecostalism” begin – the most significant change to the church since the reformation? How educated was Charles Finney or D.L. Moody or other revivalists? In that vein, I wasn’t suggesting for a minute that a Starbuck’s chat was the alternative to seminary education - that’s an unfair comparison. My thoughts are more along the lines of living with believer’s in community; edifying, encouraging and challenging one another, as we connect with others around us. Sharing life’s challenges and opportunities, being led by the Spirit and the Word, living out the principles of the Scriptures, being close enough to be accountable for how I live. Building relationship with people who are not yet in Christ, sharing meals, blessing the community I’m planted in, being committed to be refined by others around me… Allowing those who are mature and “elder” to disciple, bring guidance, give direction to my life and in turn imparting what God has invested in me to others… Taking up and/or developing educational opportunities that help me to engage more fully in the community I’m in, rather than extracting myself from real life circumstances to seek education elsewhere… and the occasional Starbucks coffee
I would also suggest that your assertion of the way in which Jesus taught his “band of followers”, might present a “straw Jesus”. We can make some assumptions from historical data about Rabbinical patterns of teaching, and clearly Jesus did engage with the Scriptures. However, if we are to rely on the gospels it would be difficult to substantiate the extent of your suggested pattern. There are frequent comments that Jesus’ teaching was received by people as being unlike the professional teachers and not just like the other Rabbi’s. His teaching is often mentioned alongside practical engagement in acts of compassion, including feeding the hungry and healing the sick, rather than simply spending all of His time on in depth study of the Scriptures. More of His recorded activity relating to His teaching is centred on stories and consequences, than on engagement with the Scriptures, and when He does engage with the Scriptures He is frequently bringing a corrective to them. In Acts 4:13
His followers are described as “illiterate” even though they had been with Jesus. It doesn’t add up in any simple way to the model you passionately advocated…
My contention is that “education” in the Word of God needs to take place alongside actively living out the Word of God. It is learned as it is embodied in everyday life, rather than simply as we give assent to it intellectually, usually in a sterile environment. I am concerned that the western educational model creates a “victim mentality.” We read information, but the model we have been exposed to and raised in has taught us not to actually do anything, without the approval of a teacher. It seems that many people sit in churches and are upset about the lack of depth in the teaching, but continue to sit there year in and year out, as “victims”, rather than accept any personal responsibility to do something themselves… On a prior thread there were several contributors who spoke of aspects of individual responsibility as a Christian; if a believer continues to listen to shallow teaching for years, who is responsible - the shallow teacher or the immature believer or both?
Peggy points to the “both/and” requirement and Matt raises the concept of monasticism, which is helpful as monastic orders were often involved in both the activities of learning and the practical neccesities of daily living; of being community as well as developing and protecting the passing on of knowledge and wisdom. Matt’s insights into the mentoring and leadership development processes of Wicca and Zen Buddhism ought to really challenge us – should embarrass us really - because they’re seizing on practices and principles we ought to have in place, but have abandoned in favour of pre-packaged, accelerated-process, microwave Christianity. One of the reasons for beginning to develop a missional leadership network is precisely the lack of peer review that exists in my context; I’m aware that I need it, I couldn’t find it, so I’ve initiated it… I guess that’s my response to your question Matt and I know that you are trying to initiate things in that regard. I’d encourage you that if at first you don’t succeed, try, try, try again!! I appreciate your frustration and that of Peggy in terms of gender, I do believe that a big effort is required – by men and women - if the “emerging” church is going to establish the equality of male and female God created in their image – instead of simply another generational reincarnation of the “old boy’s club!” (spoken as an “old boy!!”)
I agree Patrick with your wariness about ever working again with “under-educated spiritual leaders” I’d suggest that the positive response would be to minimise the influence of the under-educated, by bringing your own intellect to bear in the discipleship of others. I completely agree with you that “we need discipling communities that teach the depths of who we are, just as Jesus taught and the disciples taught. Emphasizing major studies of Scripture and our history and who God is.” I’m just not convinced that most seminaries could be described that way. There is a need for passionate people, literate in the Scriptures to engage in and develop such communities… perhaps you might consider how you could start one…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
ps Matt in moving into the “emerging” context perhaps it’s a “Mars Hill-song” conspiracy?!
The Driscoll Code eh? I just knew there was more to that wink campaign than meets the eye! Somehow I don’t think Mary Magdelene’s part of his picture though.
PS. I just love the issues this thread is bringing out.
Doesn’t Mary Magdalene work in the Mars Hill Kitchen with Martha and the other Muffins? Ouch!!
It’s just a wee joke Peggy!
Hi
Just to say I’ve been following this stream of comments but unable to post, having terrible problems with broadband, going on for a year now, hopefully to be fixed by next Friday. (Yeah, right!)
Moving anyhow to new provider.
Peggy, you wrote that 50% of those not fully discipled fail in leadership. Where has this observation originated? How does one define ‘fully discipled’? And what criteria were used for failed in leadership? I have a context here in mind where we have been arguing a specific group of leaders is failing drastically precisely because they were never discipled properly in the first place, but they come back to me and ask what I mean by ‘properly’! Good question!
Blessings, Eleanor
As someone who has been seminary educated, I have to say that this chapter in Alan’s book is probably my favorite.
As I look back on my seminary experience, I think I did benefit from the classroom education, but more than anything else, it was the life experiences that were most valuable to me. I came out of college feeling not ready to enter ministry, so I went to seminary. I didn’t know what I needed to learn, so much of it went in one ear and out the other. I learned what I was interested in — philosophy and Bible classes, but the “church management”, counseling, things like that — not sure if I remember any of it.
Now that I’ve been in the church for 10 years, I think the greatest gift I have to offer is love for people and being able to see into people’s lives and ask the right questions. These are things I didn’t learn in seminary — they came by being around people and learning to be sensitive to the Spirit - once again — not a big emphasis in seminary.
By far the greatest impact on my life and ministry was by my mentor — the one-on-one conversations, practicing disciplines, having someone to bounce things off. I’ve come to believe that if we want to develop deep people, we have to engage them at the personal level in life.
Hi all, thought I’d better chime in before there is nothing left to say.
Part of my concern with the seminary based (or rather academy based) education is not necessarily the knowledge that is gained. the ideas might be right in and of themselves. Its the socialization processes that are critical to the piece. You can’t learn ministry divorced from the context of ministry, or leadership, or mission, etc.
Amen, Alan!
And to Eleanor, according to Robert Clinton of Fuller Seminary (dare I quote him in this thread?), who has studied leadership for the past 50 years in a biblical context and has written some fabulous books on mentoring and leadership, 70% of leaders do not finish well. Mostly due to a lack of accountability and support as they ’succeed’ toward the end of their ministry. Any weaknesses that have not or are not being addressed as they work are typically exposed causing the failure rate discussed.
May we lower this number quickly and dramatically through the Holy Spirit’s power and ministry!
Such long posts everyone writes. Since I exposed one of my open wounds I might as well follow up a bit.
Matt, I think your point about quality control is really the key one for me. When I was in college I actually got quite mad at the churches I’had attended when I was first introduced to early church thought. I felt then and now the churches had failed me as a young Christian by not teaching me what so clearly was massively powerful teaching. I ended up adding a Bible/Theology degree to my history degree because I was so fascinated with what no one ever mentioned before. Indeed, a few years after I graduated during a time of indirection I decided to go to seminary, not primarily to be a pastor but because I was still so fascinated with God and Scripture, and knew for a fact the only way I was going to be taught the depths was by throwing down thousands and thousands of dollars (or at least signing papers to have those paid, then still contributing to the return of that money).
It’s not right to insist on a professional degree just to learn about the faith. So, I absolutely love the suggestions here. But like you note, Matt, we can’t just cut out the formal education and expect there to be something already in place. There’s a transition and training and learning.
I think your point about the depths of other religious teaching is spot on. People aren’t seeking a religion for cultural support. They want to meet God. And if after a few moments they realize there’s no depth, they will go elsewhere. The saddest thing in the world to me is knowning that there is depth, significant depth, beautiful amazing depth, that resonates so deeply. Only it’s not ever taught or part of the training in churches that seem to only emphasize joining the club to get others to join the club.
I ran and still run into those same problems as you are Matt. I’d love to participate in those depths with others, in that process, but it seems people are only willing to share in that if they are paying money for the privilege.
Peggy, your emphasis on women is very much fitting here. We theologize out a good portion of those who would be teachers and students and participants. In doing that we gut even more the non-professional potentials out there. I think the increased participation of women is one of the freeing movements of the Spirit in our era, and one that will reflect whether we, as a church, are able to take on more aspects of the Kingdom.
CS, passionate yes. But not too much straw persons. We all bring to these conversations our own past issues, contexts, battles, frustrations and challenges. So, when I bring up what I did I’m not dealing with straw persons, but real persons, real conversations, real faces and names and responses. Know that coming out of a fundamentalist/evangelical/pentecostal background in family and education anti-intellectualism is a living, breathing reality I’ve had to face and defend against. In bringing up highly educated revivalists, I think I’m on pretty fair ground. Not all conventionally educated but Dwight Moody and Finney, for instance, were rock solid and extreme astute in Scripture and theology. They were men who studied, and poured over the texts.
In my experiences those who de-emphasize education have a very poor understanding of both. This isn’t a straw man, but the experience of hearing sermons for 25 years. The experience of being told during my own ‘dark night’ that clearly I was caught in some kind of sin because that’s the only explanation for spiritual shadows. I had my education mocked by pastors who later fell into massive errors and caused major damage because of their own rather arrogant ignorance. Men who heard others talk about a de-emphasis on formal education and took that philosophy to heart, without replacing it with any kind of extra consideration. Starbucks did become the major place of theological interaction… or the International House of Pancakes. Once a week. Very little else was offered or even allowed.
Pentecostalism, of course, is a huge exception to the educated revivalists, but the Pentecostals I know, as scholars and pastors, don’t see that as a boon. The lack of theological insight and education, in my estimation, opened the door to a great beginnings that didn’t know how to develop into more thorough Kingdom expressions. As Alan has mentioned about his own experiences as a Pentie, and a Pentie no longer.
I guess we’re going to have to differ about Jesus. It’s not a straw Jesus, but more of a historical and Scriptural assumption based on a lot of my own study. Those guys studied and prayed every single day. Jesus went through all the Scriptures to show how he was the Messiah. They poured over the writings, and the Law, and the Prophets, and the Psalms. Paul, to be sure, had mastered the Scriptures and religious thought before being called by Jesus. The early church met daily to ponder such things. So it wasn’t formal, but there was a lot of discussion and prayer and study mixed in with the giving and actions. The followers were described as illiterate by formally educated Pharisees wishing to bash the self-educated. The Gospels, the epistles, etc. show a pretty sophisticated thinking. But proving this more is a tangent… but not a straw tangent.
I heartily agree that it has to be lived out alongside being studied. My life history has brought this together without too much effort. Dealing with massive poverty, handicapped relatives, heartbreaking disasters, tends to make theology for me a needed rather than theoretical exercise. So, maybe that’s partly why I assume the ‘living out’ even as I talk more about the need for focused education. The living out was part of the territory, while the dedicated consideration was something I heartily missed from most of my pastoral mentors. WHich again goes back to how we’re all coming at this with our unique joys and frustrations.
And, I guess, CS, that’s all going into my present efforts. Having tried to minimize the influence of the under-educated while being a lowly youngster only got people mad at me (those in authority, not those I was working with). I think neither seminaries nor churches do a good job of discipling fully, which is why I’m wary about nixing one for the other just yet. We have to have clear changes in philosophy and expectation in place. Changes that come about by conversations like this, and from leaders who want more than to just get others to join the club.
Know I am very much considering all these things, as part of my own life’s calling. Trying to spread the word, I suppose, in my own way by writing and talking and encouraging. Even as I participate in the lives of those dismissed by the world.
And Alan, there’s always something left to say.
You note, “You can’t learn ministry divorced from the context of ministry, or leadership, or mission, etc” which of course is absolutely true. It’s also true that a person can do ministry, good works, and be helpful to this world without knowing God or growing mature in the faith. The church falters when it goes too far to the right or the left. But I think I’m just saying stuff everyone already agrees with. I just like to write a lot of words I suppose.
Richard,
You can quote anyone you want at TFW!
And the 70% not finishing well is what I would call a separate issues…the 50% I’m talking about are relatively rapid failures.
Eleanor,
When I went to a “Prevailing Church” conference at Willow Creek about seven years ago, I attended their Small Group Leadership track of seminars. This was where I first heard the statistic…but it immediately resonated with my 30 years of personal experience!
The criteria for the failure rate are those who just drop out–usually after less than one year…and many after less than six months!
They are trained in methodology in a classroom–which is exactly what is targeted in this thread–and are not apprenticed with an experienced leader in how to handle the challenges that come with leadership…namely PEOPLE!
Because they have not have someone speaking into their lives in a loving yet truthful manner–gently leading and correcting–they do not know how to recognize “issues” before the become “ISSUES” and poison the environment in the area of leadership (in my case, small groups).
Very few people are up for managing conflict in any kind of helpful way (and if that isn’t a condenmation of a group whose mission is reconciliation, I don’t know what is!) that protects the dignity of all and leads to growth and maturity and people staying together!
But more than that, there are two basic kinds of leadership launching: those who go through at least some kind of training, and those who have some kind of experience in leadership somewhere. Which opens up yet another can of worms, because if you take someone’s word that they have leadership experience, but you don’t know what that experience actually is by working along with that person, it may be someting that you really DON’T want passed along.
But we are so far behind the curve on developing competent leaders that we are DESPERATE for someone who is willing…whether they are able sometimes gets glossed over.
Many times people are willing to lead, but they are not willing to be apprenticed. This should send up a red flag….
Other times people are willing to lead, attend the training and just never do it…because they don’t have any confidence and would really like to walk along with someone for a while…these are the ones that break my heart…especially because most of my leaders were unwilling to apprentice! AAUGH!!!
Anyway, Eleanor…I hope that fill in some of the blanks.
The 50% that make it doesn’t mean that they are really successful (especially since most of them do not apprentice and multiply…EVER)…just that they didn’t give up and walk away.
Some of these should be retrained/apprenticed because their groups are not healthy…but they are unwilling to be guided in any way by anyone!
Okay…that’s all I can handle remembering at this moment–and why I am so passionate about truly making disciples who make disciples.
Blessings.
Patrick…you and I were posting at the same time, so I’ll read your stuff and get back.
Thanks, CS and Matt! And by the way, Mary Magdalene may very well work in their kitchen…but I am talking about Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus
hehehe
The Abbess is about to get her ruler out, careless boys
Patrick,
Great post…one thing to offer right off the bat. It seems to me that you and CS are just passing each other in two areas:
1) You are both speaking from your experience, which is a good place to speak from. When we do that, however, we must add that caveat…the “from my experience”…or bring it up as an assumption in the dialogue. Our experience is valid, but way too many times people over-step with the inclusion or exclusion of many by using the word “the majority of” or “almost all” or other terms.
2) Not all education is “Formal”…and many people who are not well educated “formally” have spent their lives searching the scriptures and educating themselves to the best of their ability. I would fall into that category, mostly…and Matt would be right there with me.
Now, I do have a degree from a Christian University with a minor in Biblical Studies…but I do not have a Masters or any other graduate studies. That some would say that my education is insufficient is where the trouble comes. That they would consider me (even those who don’t discount me automatically because of gender) not suited for leadership because of lack of “proper” credentials is what causes so much bitterness.
Great conversation here, brethren (which term, I have been told by “really learned” folk, includes the sistren
)
Hullo-o-o…
Reviewing my comments I may well have pushed the “straw person” too far… and should have commented that much of it is “in my own humble experience,” though some of it might well be “educated” too! I write from the perspective of presently studying post-grad with two prior degrees and I am presently leading a “pentecostal” community too… However, my comments are based on critical analysis of my experience and concern that we don’t simply continue to inflict the church’s historical failures on future generations.
Also from Peggy’s note 2, Patrick one of the key points from your comment is “Not all conventionally educated but Dwight Moody and Finney, for instance, were rock solid and extreme astute in Scripture and theology. They were men who studied, and poured over the texts.” Which is precisely the point I had in mind raising their names… extraction to seminary is not a pre-requisite for Biblical education!
Blessings all…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
ps Peggy isn’t the Biblical term “cistern?” Just another “wee” joke - no pun intended
CS,
Are you suggesting that the sisters are cracked pots…or that we’re all wet? …no, just a wee play on words, eh?
I think we are all very close to the same point. I just want to be sure that we feel free to state our experience and perceptions of the issues without unintentionally exclusing other’s experiences and perceptions. The more we understand the breadth of the issue, the better for the Body of Christ!
Blessings.
Peggy and CS I probably should have been more clear in saying that I think its education, not just formal education, that is important. In fact that’s been a major driving point in my own ministry interests over the years, realizing that I’ve found significantly more ‘educated’ people in the laity at times than on staff. Only the hierarchy has insisted the position, not the understanding, is what’s important.
But sadly, in my experience
, this is rare, and the anti-intellectualism of the 20th century conservative Christian movements has meant the Finneys and Moodys of our era would be more busy learning technique than depth.
Not too many systematic theologies being written by Evangelical pastors these days after all. There was after Wesley a much higher pressure to learn the deeper aspects of the faith in study.
I think we are probably all close to the same point and I for one am likely just exercising being disagreeable. That’s a man for ya’.
Many thanks for the clarifications. I will follow up by looking at what Robert Clinton has written.
In a recent article in my own denomination the main reason given in a survey for people not coming forward to train as ministers was - other ministers. They were concluding it was better to serve God in different ways and other contexts than to end up being mentored by, and becoming like, the ministers leading in their community.
I agree with training being integrated with practical leadership, and think my denomination is already trying hard to do this.
Another factor in leader disasters identified by the London Mennonite Centre who trained us in mediation and conflict consultancy was the level of emotional maturity of the minister. One of the team expressed the concern that all the discipleship in the world, if based on book learning, isn’t going to address this, and neither is college training. But how to address it is another matter. Mentoring surely gets close.
I was encouraged that in one Cornish venture here, each disciple, even in teens, is provided with a spiritual director as a matter of course. That also means finding those able to give SD, but I think he had coupled discipleship courses with SD training courses, so he was training enough people to give support.
In reflecting on what has been said here … well it reminded me of a talk I once heard by Ron Sider on the false dichotomy between evangelism and social action … maybe we also need to also start talking about the false dichotomy between rigorous education and practical experience. Some churches focus on education, some focus on experience, we have rendered asunder what should be together.
I think in my experience, one of the great problems in “fully training” disciples is that many pastors don’t trust lay people to “do ministry.” They can do some things — like teach children, or fix the furnace, but as far as really being engaged with people — that’s better left to the “professionals.”
When I was in seminary, we did what was called “supervised ministry.” Basically, we would get paired with a local pastor to learn ministry in the church context. The problem was that many of the pastors didn’t really allow the learners to do ministry. We would ride along to visits and things and occassionally preach on a Sunday night (when no one was there). The other extreme was that some pastors would throw their students in head first without any supervision or help.
So even the part of the education that was supposed to be practical, for many of us, was not really worth it. “Pastors” in the current sense have to start seeing it as their role to educate and train rather than do all the ministry. If the “professionals” were more into equipping, I think there wouldn’t be such a great gap between clergy and laity and we wouldn’t have so many spectators in our churches.
Eleanor…
I would expect that mentoring and relationship with a spiritual director, would provide significant keys to growth.
Matt…
is “false dichotomy” a consequence of the embrace of a dualist paradigm?
I’m with you Kory…
I think along with the emphasis on APEST in Eph 4:11
it would be a helpful thing to identify the purpose for APEST from Eph 4:12
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Okay, I was thinking on this last night and realized a better distinction that’s in my head. I was saying ‘education’ and that has assorted baggage.
My focus is more on ‘content’. Wisdom is having content and knowing how to apply it.
Churches and leadership training teach application. But content is left out. That’s hit a lot of emerging/missional church plants I’ve seen. The leaders know the methods but run into walls when faced with new situations or complications or just complex pastoral situations. The alienated then become alienated again because the leader doesn’t have content of theology, or Scripture to apply wisdom to a moment.
Seminary is very good, in my experience, about teaching content. If you look for it to be an end-all to ministry mastering it’s not that, though I was provoked to more and better ministry in my ministry classes.
So my worry is that content is taught. Content which has been very much lost in contemporary Christianity as it has been replaced by methodology.
This doesn’t insist on formal education for some people, but because learning content isn’t often fun and isn’t immediately applicable it’s often ignored and requires a formal setting (and a test or paper) to get a person engaged.
SpamBam tried to get me again…but NO…so here is goes…
Wow, everyone…there are just too many things to think and talk about on this thread!
This is my last shot for about five days…so don’t think I left in a huff or anything like that, okay?
Eleanor #40,
Your experience with the ministers is the same as my small group leaders…they are unwilling to mentor or apprentice in any meaningful way. They either hold the strings too closely or delegate too expansively. Both of these lead to failure in budding learners.
I tell you all, again, that it was by the grace of God that I came into formal leadership (post college/ordination) at the same time I became a parent. It is exactly the same dynamic.
Parents that never let their children to things for fear that they will get hurt or fail cripple them for being able to be resilliant later in life. Parents that let their children do whatever they want and don’t provide appropriate boundaries rob their children of a secure environment in which to learn about consequences. I both cases, the self-confidence is injured…and they too often move from being willing but unable or insecure to being unable and also unwilling! AAUGH!
It was a wise person that observed that one cannot pass on something that one does not have…and I think that the 50% who make it have either been intentionally mentored at some point or at least observed or read about or experienced godly servant leadership.
Matt #41,
Exactly…we are to use our eyes to see, our ears to hear and then use our words and hands and feet do what we have seen and heard!
To continue with the mothering model, it would be like getting pregnant and carrying the child and giving birth and then going off…like so many species of animals do! But humans must be nurtured longer than any other creature in God’s Creation! The human brain does not fully integrate their amazing frontal lobe with the rest of the brain until sometime in their early 20’s!
No wonder young men didn’t marry until they were older and left their families of origin to begin their lives in their late 20’s–even as old as 30. Hmmm…now who does that remind me of….yeah, exactly!
Kory #42 & CS #43,
Bingo! This is what is leading me to establish a kind of church planting movement that moves away from the “professionl” model and its exclusivity. Those who think that I am starting “my own church” so that I can be the Master professional are wrong. Jesus is Lord of the Church and recognition and submission to the Holy Spirit ensures that we all get that. The saints are to do the work of the ministry…and the Lord provides the APEST gifts to equip the saints to do the work–not do that work for them!(See rants on parenting above
)
And, finally, Patrick #44,
Yes, we need to be about seeking wisdom…but if you don’t have any “content” there can be no wise application, can there!
But, to my view, seminary is a little late for the content. Now, better late than never, of course, but, IMO, it needs to start at around 9 or 10 years old and get more specific and deeper every year. And this is where the Christian parent (and other family members) must step up to their primary task. They must both teach their children the facts in the Bible and show their children how they are transformed by the widsom that comes from applying God’s lessons in appropriate ways to all aspects of their lives.
Children aren’s stupid…they will learn what they see and hear their parents and other influential persons doing and saying…and if that is not consistent with what the adults are purposefully trying to teach, don’t blame the children….
Love you all…be blessed…don’t ditch me, I’ll be back to catch up on Friday!
When I put my first post in I didn’t realise what a big issue this was for people. After reading peoples thoughts I think there are two more things I would like to add.
First, as a Father of four kids my deep concern for them is what they will learn is any discipling scenario. Other then Jesus warning, to his disciples, about not preventing the little ones from coming to him there is not a lot said regarding the discipling of children. My kids, currently residing in the West, do not have options to go to seminary or Bible College at this stage for their discipleship; but that doesn’t mean they don’t need it now. As communities of faith we need to comprehend kids learn primarily by doing and watching. If we are not walking together their learning of what following Christ looks like will be very stilted. I don’t want them to wait until 18 so can be discipled.
Secondly, I have been deeply affected by the movie Arthur; yes the movie starring Clive Owen. Laugh if you will. The overwhelming sense in the movie is that of the retraction of Rome from Britain and consequent changes to the whole political, social and economic landscape. It gives a microcosm snapshot of living through great change; not being able to assume what was true yesterday will be true tomorrow. It was into this vacuum that many of the first great missionary groups came to Britain. They were whole family groups building faith communities in the midst of a very volatile environment. The wonderful small book, “They Converted Our Ancestors: A Study of the Early Church in Britain By John Foster”, is a wonderful and inspiring read regarding this. My point is many of our assumptions regarding discipleship occur in a location where the church can own property and seminaries and is very much a legal religion. For many places on this earth this is not true. For many times in our history this is not true. It may not be true for my children. We need to start thinking about discipleship in an environment where we may again not be a “legal religion”.