a parting shot across the calvinist bow…
Actually I am traveling with family at the moment, and am forced to blog via my phone. Oh the indignity and wonder of it all. Don’t ask why I am still stuck on the susceptibility to religiosity in historic Calvinism, but this thought did cross my mind; how is it that those who claim the broadest understanding if grace have the narrowest application of it? Curious holiday speculation.
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Sorry about the spelling. Hard to fix from the phone.
Do they really have the broadest understanding of grace? A doctrine that consigns the majority of humanity to hell because God preordained that they go to hell?
I have never met a Calvinist who wasn’t one of the elect
As a recovering Calvinist, I found the Calvinistic circles I ran in to be very narrow when it came to you was part of the “saved.”
Bruce
Speaking as a Calvinist… you are spot on… we tend to be the most unloving group i know… Pray for us and with us that God would work out the truth in us more and more…
Alan - I like your blog and the thinking it provokes. I haven’t earned the right to confront you but I’ll take a risk anyway. Please do not assume the behavior of some (especially those most visible in the blogshere) is representative of Reformed Theology.
There are many Calvinists out there that I hope are not as you describe (I include myself) and if I am correct in that, your generalization would be doing the same thing as those ugly Calvinists.
I wonder at times whether the entire Calvinist-Arminian debate isn’t just another one of them false dichotomies. I mean, the Bible I have on my shelf seems to support BOTH human responsibility AND divine sovereinty.
Now, one way to reconcile that aparant contradiction could be to say human responsibility is more subjective and divine sovereinty is more objective, and I expect Calvanists would cry “ah ha!” at this point, but I would say, hold on, I consider the objective and subjective to be equally important considerations when it comes to living the Christian life. Let’s have some humility here about how much objectivity each of us actually has in this discussion. And why would God leave evidence for both views in the Bible?
The rest of the time I just don’t give Calvinist-Arminian debate much thought at all. I just get on with the job.
Matt don’t read me as taking the Arminian side of the debate. I, like you, believe this is a false dichotomy born out of an incapacty to hold paradox and mystery itself as an integral form of biblical truth.
And Rob, feel free to disagree my friend. But my views here are not formed by the blogosphere Calvinists, but much broader than that. I studied at a Reformed seminary and know Calvinism from the inside. I know it is a generalization, but I think it dies generally stick.
I see your point here and for the most part agree with you. Calvinists are typically very narrow in their showing of grace to others. I would point out that this is not a Calvinist problem entirely. I see much of this across all strands of evangelical Christianity in the west.
I would also point out that Calvinism is taking a new face with the sudden surge in “younger” calvinists. Being a 24 year old church planter who happens to be reformed I know I have seen the arrogance, pride, and lack of grace that Calvinists can have. And myself and others in my generation have made strides to change that reputation. Lets just pray that those changes continue.
Too often the Calvinist/all others debate is a us vs. them debate. I pastored in Reformed Baptist/Sovereign Grace Baptist circles. We tended to have a remnant mentality where the 5 points took on a larger than life importance.
If this is a friendly family dispute it is not big deal. But, when one side or the other questions to salvation of the other….then we have a bigger problem.
There are Calvinists who believe gospel=5 points of Calvinism. To deny any point, in their thinking, is to deny salvation by grace.
I do hope a friendlier Calvinism is on the horizon. At age 50 I’ve not see much of it….we can hope tho
Don’t worry Alan, not presuming you’re rooting for Arminianism either, merely probing for clarification. Yesterday I had a reformed friend lump me and you fairly close together in the EC spectrum. I agreed in broad terms -see http://cityonahillstanhope.blogspot.com/2007/12/emerging-name-calling.html for the full conversation - but feel free to correct me if you think I’ve misrepresented our respective positions in any way. Anyway, this conversation feeds into that one nicely. As he positions himself with the Reformed end of the EC spectrum I was interested how close you and I would end up on the Calvanism-Arminianism debate too. I expect again we may find nuanced differences if we probe deep enough but you’ve confirmed my suspicions that on the surface we’re pretty close.
Is it just me, or is there a serious us and them vibe creeping in here?
Hi Matt’s reformed friend here. You can read the post Matt refers to for yourself, but just to clarify I was not attempting to project any sort of us and them in regards to Calvinism/Arminianism. It was merely a recognition that within the emerging attractional stream (not my description) there are brothers with a spectrum of views on this. I’m somewhat of a tentative calvinist myself but still appreciate how the Arminian view can be seen in scripture.
Way to throw down Alan.
OK…I thought you and the family were in Arizona or Nevada…but…you must have been sitting in the next booth tonight in CSprings when I was having dinner with a very close friend…and we were chasing almost the very same question. Shoot…I thought you would have at least joined us of a sacred beer. But then…that might have taken you one step closer to hell. By the way…there is a place in Death Valley, California that is Hell, CA…really! If you drive through, then you can say that at least once in your life you drove through Hell. OK…I only had one glass of vino…and it’s time for bed…but just wanted to make connection. I pray you and Deb and the others are having a great time! …prayers continuing…….
I might suggest that one inherent problem is what could be called a deficient perspective on the Holy Spirit in Reformed Theology. Not entirely missing, but certainly not entirely present, in the theology making for a very systematic, hierarchical system that substitutes the fluidity of the Spirit with other forms. So, in essence, increasingly formalized doctrine becomes the third person of the Trinity.
This emphasizes intellect and knowledge more than real grace and love.
On the other side, of course, is the Pentecostals who over-emphasize the ecstatic aspects of the Spirit and also seem to miss a lot of grace at times.
simple head and heart knowledge difference??
Succint and pointed observation. Maybe you should blog from your phone more often.
JUST KIDDING!!!!
In light of Bruce’s comment (#2), I think a key word in your post is “claim.” The narrow application may indicate the true reality of their claim.
I hear from my mate Mike Frost that I have now been labelled a “red letterist” by some people who have not appreciated these posts. I suppose that means that I take Jesus too seriously. I can wear that. But I do need to say that I do not in any way diminish Paul’s (or any of the epistles for that matter) canonical status and authority as God’s Word. I am an avowed conservative when it comes to Scripture. Whatever we might say about Paul’s authority though. Only Jesus is my Lord.
So, what you’re saying is all you know is Jesus Christ and him crucified?
What a stumbling block. And foolishness to boot.
Actually, Alan I think Paul would agree, that is, about Jesus being Lord. Seems to me Paul was often labeled, challenged, misunderstood, and abandoned by many. Even within the churches he planted, leaders rose up, not only elevating themselves but also elevating themselves over Paul, by using Paul’s own words against him. How much more do we, being even further removed from their culture do this today?
seems like there would be an equal susceptibility of “arminianism.” Do “arminians” do some sort of markedly better job of understanding and demonstrating grace?
It seems too simple to say that “calvinists are too narrow” and certainly there is a misunderstanding of what the typical “calvinist” believes, especially if someone believes most people go to hell because God ordained them to go there.
Wow. This thread just isn’t encouraging.
Sorry I’m commenting on an older post. I just saw it.
All the reformer-emerging tension this last year, I think, could only exist via media and the internet. I find when I get the chance to live life in community with a reformer, we almost always agree with 99% of each other’s theologies.
But, to say something about all the strong language that has come from the these guys via media, if God has predestined everything, why do they bother speaking out against theologies they feel are heretical? I respect a lot of the Calvinists of the early 19th century for their honesty. They at least acknowledged the logical outcome of their belief and sat around and read all the time-forsaking mission.
If modern Calvinists still feel that mission to the world in some fashion is important, then why make such a big deal about God’s sovereignty when their emphatic understanding of it obviously contradicts their missiology? They should let it be what it is, trust God, and GO!
Of course, I’m generalizing all Calvanists and I should say I am appreciative of how their thinking challenges me to revere God.
Go Jus!
Being another who defies labels, yet has been fully exposed (I did grow up in Grand Rapids, Michigan!) to both sides of this debate, it is always heartbreaking when it becomes an “us versus them” deal, because then the unity of the Body is broken.
I feel that I have been fortunate to have known and read much of Lewis B. Smedes…a man I would nominate as the most graceful Calvinist to ever have lived. I think it is because he was willing to embrace a bit more of the mystery.
I don’t really have an answer except that when I think about a narrow view of grace what comes to mind is - Matthew 18:21-35