submerging
Ash Barker of Urban Neighbors of Hope, a missional order among the poor in Melbourne and Bangkok articulates multiple levels of incarnationality. His structure is intriguing because it highlights the centrality of the experience of Jesus by the host community and not that of the church community itself. He suggests four stages where the community experiences Jesus for them, with them, among them, and of them
Real connection—Jesus “for” the host community:
This is the initial stage on incarnational mission where the story of Jesus is initially introduced into a group of people. “The objective here is for not-yet-Christians to see that Jesus is “for” the host community. That is, Jesus has the host community’s best interests at heart. In other words, he is on their side and is against anything that is causing them harm. In a world where many non-Christians assume God hates them presumably because they gain the impression that God’s people hate them, it is important to establish credibility and to diminish prejudice against the gospel. And this needs to be done through the loving presence and service of his people who have begun to engage the community meaningfully in their spaces within their pre-existing relationships. If real connection is to happen, a positive presence that models Christlikeness and builds meaningful relationships is essential.
In the Shaping of Things to Come we suggested that to meet this objective there should be three fundamental strategies:
- The need for direct and personal presence (you and the team you are working with).
- The need for practical partnerships. We believe that too much Christian ministry is a duplication of projects and programs already being conducted by the community itself. An incarnational approach to ministry would see the Christian community partnering with local groups to assist in their work with families, the poor, youth, single mothers etc. and in the process bringing Jesus into the imagination of the people we are seeking to reach. These partnerships concretely demonstrate that Jesus is pleased with the good works of not-yet-Christians and provide a forum for the development of significant friendship. It’s useful to regularly approach local community groups or projects and ask them three simple questions: a) What are you most concerned about? b) What are the causes of those concerns (the root of the problem)? c) What can we do together to help?
- The need for inquiry groups (places to discover Christ). There needs to be the opportunity for Christians and those not-yet-Christians who want to explore the gospel further to gather together to do so in a non-threatening and respectful environment.
Critical mass—Jesus “with” the host community:
Because we in the West live in a post-Christian society which has in effect been inoculated against authentic Christianity, in the process of reaching people in our culture the incarnational church has to constantly reframe the community’s perceptions about Jesus and the church. Many people in the West think the church is paternalistic, manipulative, greedy and controlling and history has given them ample reason to think that this is actually the case. The main issues that the team will probably deal with here are prejudice toward Jesus and negative stereotypes of Christians and what they are really on about. To break the misconceptions and stereotypes we will probably have to recreate the structure of trust and credibility in order to speak meaningfully across history and experience. Because only when prejudice and misconceptions are broken down and transformed will the people begin to see that Jesus is truly with them in their daily life. This will require a living demonstration of the gospel by Jesus’ people. Strategic focus work in this stage therefore should be on developing a real understanding and encounter with Jesus and on establishing the credibility of the missional team. In order to base the future church squarely on its Founder, Jesus (Christology), we suggest the gospels must become the central and defining texts of the community. This process of focusing the community on Jesus is important because they need to connect with the Living Christ through direct engagement with the Scriptures.
But an individual understanding of Jesus is not enough to create missional community—the community as a whole must also encounter Him. One simply cannot minimize the impact of direct and transforming experiences of Jesus in extending the missionary enterprise: Conversions, answered prayers and other supernatural experiences of Christ make a real and lasting impact on a community. Jesus is a living person so a personal as well as a communal encounter with him is crucial. It is out of these encounters with Jesus that the new community of faith is formed and founded.
The critical need in terms of church planting at this stage is to develop momentum. This cannot be artificially manufactured by the missional team. They can simply create environments where God’s presence may be discerned and encountered and join in on what God is already doing in the community.
Real access—Jesus “among” the host community:
“As the church community grows, the recognition that Jesus is among the host community will be possible by several key indicators. Firstly, the establishment of a community of faith that is genuinely part of the fabric of the host community.
Secondly, Jesus ‘among’ the community will be known through the development of genuinely indigenous (insider) leaders. While ever the church is led by “outsiders,” no matter how incarnated they have become, there will remain a suspicion that Jesus has come into the host community, but is not really part of that community. Indigenous leaders are living symbols of the Incarnation in the culture. It is therefore important for the original missional team and leaders to know the time to hand over complete leadership to newly developed local leaders.
Thirdly, and related to the above two factors,”…it is important to note that truly indigenous churches are ones that are self-theologizing. Christ is in a community when it is able to develop its own theology using language, symbols, and longings with local flavor and resonance. This sounds risky, we know. But we are not suggesting that basic Christian doctrine be up for re-negotiation. An indigenous churches grow they must be people of the Word of God, but they need to express biblical theology in culturally intelligible ways.”
Real encounter—Jesus “of” the host community:
In this stage Jesus and the Christian message is considered to be an integral part of the culture of a group/community. He is known as ‘one of us.’ Barker suggests that only when a second generation of leaders emerges from the community itself will it be possible for Jesus to be experienced as an organic part of the host community. Only when Jesus is considered “one of us” by a community as a whole can it authentically encounter Christ and be considered “reached”.
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I appreciate the idea from Shaping of Things to Come of offering inquiry groups. I work for a church in an urban, poor area, and we often struggle with how to connect with groups that don’t have Christ as an essential aspect of their mission. We want to partner together, but we don’t want to ignore our passion to introduce Christ. Inquiry groups would create an amazing opportunity to partner freely with diverse (non)religious communities while allowing our message to be essential to our actions. Amazing thought!
An indigenous churches grow they must be people of the Word of God, but they need to express biblical theology in culturally intelligible ways.”
Wow, that’s a mind blower. It seems to me finding support for this would be difficult, though the idea is exciting.
Why would you find this strange Penney? Its what we are doing right now. The fact that we have theologized the Bible into our own culture means that it ought not to be too strange to us. The problems arise when we have to reach cross culturally, as I believe we have to do in our own settings now.
“The need for inquiry groups (places to discover Christ). There needs to be the opportunity for Christians and those not-yet-Christians who want to explore the gospel further to gather together to do so in a non-threatening and respectful environment.”
I am always impressed with this idea and its abilities in Third Place environments. I very much enjoyed its exploration in ‘The Shaping of Things to Come’ and thank you Alan for being willing to voice its need!
That said, in Canada we have a diverse number of religious belief systems which come from the many people in our community. It’s not just a Christian and non-Christian context. It’s a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, JW, Buddhist and Atheist context. As you may have heard about the actions of the group Anonymous, even Scientology has begun to take a footing in Canadian social beliefs.
With this in mind, one of the problems we have encountered here is how can we develop and maintain an environment which is open to all of these ideologies and is conducive to exploring and encountering the person and Lordship of Jesus without it turning into an argumentative debate over who is right or wrong? It is difficult to put into words but, how do we free people from these ideological perspectives of religion and “groups” so that they might authentically express and encounter the true Jesus?
On the opposite side I am also wondering about the dangers in presenting this idea and it turning simply into another “Christian” environment where the other “groups” simply have no place to fit in and eventually wash away. How can we prevent this?
I hope that it is o.k. in voicing these questions. I am just thinking out loud.
Voice away Erik. and a good voice it is too.
Fantastic questions Erik,
I think that one of the great qualities of Alan’s posts and his blog, is that it causes people to think things through and to raise authentic questions…
My comments on the blog here are few and far between these days, but I don’t have a reputation for brevity… if I had a blog I’d just post a link to connect, but I don’t so here’s a long-winded response to your great questions…
Ash Barker’s “Submerge” is confronting, challenging and provocative to the Westernised “Christendom” mindset. His “money-where-your-mouth-is” approach to following Christ leaves a sour taste in the over-fed mouth. He has taken the reality of following Jesus to heart and had the courage of his convictions, if like me you’re a comfortable Christian it’s a book to avoid. If you’d prefer to connect with the kind of reactionary attitudes that lead to the situation where “many non-Christians assume God hates them presumably because they gain the impression that God’s people hate them,” there’s plenty of helpful, judgemental evangelicalism around and obligingly it’s being brought into post-modern guise by some great new giants of the American Reformission, like the humble and unassuming Mark Driscoll. Mark likes to make it clear to his audience that “God hates you…” to make sure that the great works of Jonathan Edwards are revised for a post-modern audience*
Ash Barker and other incarnational missional practitioners are a great example of what it means to commit to follow Jesus in the 21st century. While making no claims to the same level of commitment, there are a few steps that I take in my lifestyle situation that may or may not help, but they may spark other thoughts or conversations that could be useful in response to your questions…
I have an intentional personal framework for discussions that arise related to my beliefs… a series of boundaries, checks and balances that I seek to remain within, when I have the opportunity to talk about issues of faith. I don’t always succeed, at times my mouth runs ahead of my brain and I catch myself trotting out some pat “justification” I’ve heard from other believers or some judgmental crap that I’ve absorbed but not really thought through.
Much of my framework is built upon elements developed in times of quiet self-preparation…
I regularly pray… I pray specifically about possible opportunities, that I will be guided by God’s Spirit and not continually live with my foot in my mouth, or with a perpetual sense that I have missed yet another opportunity.
I live in gratitude for God’s redeeming grace in my life… I was a tormented soul, covering up my own inadequacies with drugs, alcohol and acting out a self-fulfilling prophecy of dying young… and God rescued me. In line with a classic Alistair McGrath quote that I came across very early in my walk in Christ, I see myself as a beggar pointing other beggars to where there is free bread.
I think in advance about ways to discuss spiritual issues without embarrassing or intimidating people, I find that saying “Wicca is interesting, I don’t know a lot about it, how did you get involved?” is usually a better approach than “do you know the Bible says you are going to hell!” I consistently have to question myself and my motives; do I really want to help someone to see the light or am I more concerned with others knowing that “I’m right” and condemning them to their fate? There are a myriad of good ways to build conversations if we will give time to giving it some thought.
I constantly consider what I believe and why I believe what I believe… I aim to be equipped to help others understand what I believe God is about. I have grown from an evangelical theology of judgment into a strong theology of Grace and I try to live it graciously - I’ve often heard people aggressively present their perspective of “grace” and I wonder how real grace is to them – so I try to be gracious… which often takes the influence of the Spirit of God!
When I am around people who are not yet followers of Jesus, I cherish the opportunity to point them towards Christ, in whatever little way I can. Often after I have encountered someone, whom I recognize to be in a place of searching, I will find myself passionately praying for them and for the opportunity to “bump into them” again – I enjoy the serendipity of what a friend calls “divine domino” encounters.
Like Paul at Mars Hill, I look for the “right” things in someone else’s religious or spiritual understanding, as a place to start from – I try to catch people doing something right! Then I’ll try to lead a conversation from that point towards Christ. When I encounter resistance I’ll back off and try to retrace my steps to the point that raised the barriers, then explore what that means to the other person. If I’ve trodden roughshod over a precious belief I’ll apologise and see how we might be able to explore the root issues authentically. Sometimes the damage is done and the conversation is over, but even then at times an apology leaves an open door to explore issues further in the future.
This self-preparation in quiet, leads to a framework of thinking when I am out and about… I understand that I am always about my Father’s business
I endeavour to remain in a mindset where my concern is for the other person, not simply to voice my own opinion - I truly believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, that living within the holistic framework of Biblical Christianity is the best way for human beings to live. I’m not setting out to convince people that I’m right, more to encourage them to consider a way of life that I believe will be better for them. One of the major problems as Alan points out is that Christianity, as it is perceived and practiced in the West, is frequently far from authentically Biblical, and there is a whole lot of unlearning that has to be done first, so I have to be prepared to travel on a journey of discovery with anyone who inquires.
I try to ensure that it is genuinely a situation of “inquiry” from the other person, rather than me trying to impose my beliefs onto others. I don’t volunteer information until a question is asked – their question gives me permission to share my mission. I make an effort to engage in some level of relationship with a person I meet – make an effort to remember their name, to remember details from initial conversations that will identify to them that I am a person who listens. I try hard to be more focused on listening than speaking… I believe that people want to know how much you care before they care how much you know.
One observation/revelation that I have had from Ephesians 4
particularly verse 15, is the relationship between truth and speaking it in love… I “see” that love builds a bridge into other people’s lives that truth can travel across. When we have sufficiently built the bridge, then we can walk truth across it into a loved one’s heart – the weightier the truth, the stronger the “love bridge” has to be. All too often we “value” truth over love and we try to force a weight of truth into someone’s heart that we do not have the relationship to sustain. The consequence is that the bridge collapses, often it is irreparably damaged and the person is abandoned, on the other side of a chasm from a truth that they desperately need… Paul reminds us that the greatest attribute is love.
I actively listen for spiritual clues in conversations, I’m not “pushing” Jesus upfront in conversations with people. When people speak about their horoscope or visiting a psychic, from my perspective they are identifying that they look for guidance for their lives beyond what is simply material. That can lead to a series of conversations trying to understand the root of why they’ve chosen that particular brand of spiritual guidance… and them exploring where they actually got their ideas from, and whether they do have any solid basis for what they believe.
I deliberately put myself in situations of potential. I’m selective in my consumerism… if I’ve had a spiritual conversation with a hairdresser, or a shop assistant, or a car mechanic etc, I will continue to use their services until I’ve sensed there is some conclusion to the discussion. That doesn’t mean that everyone necessarily comes to faith in Jesus Christ, but perhaps they seriously consider their fundamental reasons for believing what they do, or sometimes I just have a sense that this door is closed, it’s time to look for another that my Father has already prepared for me to walk into.
I try to create that opportunity for others too. At least once a month I go to a local pub, basically we have a couple of beers and play pool. I send an SMS to a bunch of mates a week or so before, some are followers of Jesus, and some are not, some of my Christian friends invite their friends who are not yet connected. We can guarantee a few discussions on spiritual issues on those evenings – they lay the groundwork for future inquiries.
My primary aim is to sow a seed, but I’m always aware that a seed may already exist that I can water, or that it is a time for reaping and I have the opportunity to share the final steps of someone’s journey in connecting with God. God is the one who brings the increase and it is to His glory. I find that serious discussion on spiritual issues generally does not happen in a group setting, the group environment creates the opportunity to connect for future one-on-one encounters.
If things are ever getting heated I change the conversation – sometimes to equally volatile subjects like politics or racism or sport. My aim is to steer the person’s remembrance of the heated discussion away from their critique of or opposition to Christianity – it doesn’t always work. In the end I don’t feel that I have to justify myself or God, God has justified me and He is capable of justifying Himself/themself to others… I’m simply a messenger.
I hope there’s something in there of use in considering your questions Erik…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
* as an aside - am I the only one who found “Confessions of a Reformission Rev” built upon a fundamentally modernist concept… basically a major part of the book seemed to be defined by the challenges of housing a Sunday church service… Driscoll’s field of dreams - “if you build it they will come.”
** as a further aside do my comments about Mark Driscoll’s teaching qualify as speaking the truth in love??
Ahhhh, welcome back O wayward Celtic Son! Its not been the same without you.
Thanks Alan…
it’s all just too hectic at present… with family life, renovations, work, community, church, studies, developing a missional leadership network and workshops for emerging leaders and a variety of other engagements and opportunities… I’d love to engage more at TFW and a number of other great blogs…
By the way, nice to see you and Frosty got a mention from the unassuming Mark Driscoll… is it true that all publicity is good publicity
Blessings to you and yours
Slainte
Erik, I think one of the problems you’re articulating is the problem of Jesus asking for exclusivity. This is very… annoying. Right? In any pluralistic society, exclusivity is offensive. But, in a relationship (like the one I have with my wife), exclusivity is expected. I think the exclusivity of Christ is only offensive to us because Christianity has been understood as a religion for so long that we’ve forgotten it’s a relationship. I realize none of this is shocking, but when I think of exclusivity as an integral part of a relationship, it makes much more sense to me.
Erik, on my own blog, where engagement with people from all sorts of weird and wonderful spiritual paths is a fairly frequent occurance, I find that “respect for the alien” is the core value that must undergird everything. I may not empathize with others, I may not agree with them, but I do respect them as fellow humans on a spiritual quest.
This is where I must state, we need to be very careful how we define “open”. Some, fearing theological or spiritual contamination from Wiccans, Scientologists and the like, shun them as though were some sort of spiritual lepers. Others in (over)reaction to such obsenities, open their minds up to such an extent that grey matter starts to spill out. I advocate avoiding both extremes. What is needed by Christians working amongst other religions is more skill in respectful disagreement.
In other words polite behaviour, friendliness, respect, in short, normal everyday peaceful interaction with people. But try to slip in some Christian bullshit along the way.
Why mention Jesus at all? Here’s a suggestion: just relate to people without breathing a word about your faith.
What’s more important? Your need to evangelise or their needs?
Are you actually interested in dialogue David?
I think that one of the great qualities of Alan’s posts and his blog, is that it causes people to think things through and to raise authentic questions…
AMEN, Celtic Son!
Alan, you asked me why I find this strange? It blows my mind, not in the weird sense, but in more of an awakening. Celtic’s post really nailed things for me because I have been living my life very similar. It’s been natural.
Last September I went to Willow Creek with my pastor to learn about small groups for our church. We have been studying and reading many of the same materials. Yet, whether intentional or not, I believe we are doing a bait & switch. It seems like we are trying to use creative ways in order to pull people into our own culture and theology.
It suddenly hit me that part of the conflict for me is my own institutional mind set. I have been forcing myself to try and understand our theology and expression of worship. Yet, it does not speak to me and becomes very artificial. So, while I have come to believe in the emerging church for others, I have not believed it for myself. When sharing with my pastor that I do not experience worship in the same way, I got the impression that something was wrong with me, as I was told to continue studying and I will come to a better understanding.
Now more questions arise that excite and scare me. Being very new to scripture, who holds me accountable? How do I find alternate ways in which to draw nearer to Jesus with other christians? How do I disciple the many people searching for Him in all the areas of my life? Why do I call my pastor, pastor? Why do I feel I need my leadership to give me permission to be me? How do I love, honor, and obey them in truth? How do I avoid being elevated as I share and teach about Christ myself? Where does my culture theology exist and how can I express it?
The amazing thing is, one of my co-workers is struggling with the same thing. Last night at work as we shared these things, in frustration I took a chair and set it in front of him. We than grabbed hands and began to pray for each other. Jesus took us back, back to the simplicity of it! He was working on my prayer even before I asked.
Than before bed I read your quote from your friend KC. Jesus tucked me in for the night in all my humanity, and gave me permission to just be me! God Bless!
Celtic Son…
Yes thank you for your response. I found your words to be both affirming and inspiring. I too find myself acting in a similar manner within the practices of grace. It seems more natural in character and life. That said, I am trying to encourage others to do the same and in honesty for me it seems to sometimes be a struggle. Perhaps I am too pessimistic.
I like this picture of exclusivity that Artie articulates and it really seems connected in Matt’s balances within the practice of respectful disagreement.
In developing inquiry groups I think then there must be three key points maintained within its practice:
* Knowing yourself in relationship to Christ’s Lordship.
* Maintaining independent margins and boundaries while helping others to explore theirs.
* Practicing a character of love & grace within a framework of disagreement to that which might contradict our own margins.
I think you are right Matt… there needs to be more definment and understanding behind that last point of the practice of respectful disagreement!
Hullo-o-o Penney…
seems like you’re going through a great cathartic self-awakening, which, in my experience, is a fundamental key to a healthy and whole life - it doesn’t mean that there are no more struggles, more that we develop a better capacity to see them in light of the whole and develop a more balanced holistic approach. I am certainly no expert, in the sense that I have the answers or anything, like you I am a sojourner, travelling through this realm of life.
Having lived with an institutional mindset for a number of years it becomes part of the unconscious framework by which we live – changing that is a long-term journey of constant questioning and conscious decision-making, and even then it’s incredibly difficult. However that is our journey – that is the definition of repentance, the changing of our mindset. Essentially the New Testament calls us to be transformed by changing out thinking, removing the thinking that we have embraced from our world and our culture, and replacing it with ways of thinking that are consistent with God’s thinking. That sounds easy if you say or write it quickly enough, but it is a lifelong journey.
So much of what we define as worship and theology is more about the institutional model we have belonged to than it is about God, but unpacking it is fraught with danger, because often we are calling into question the teaching of precious people who have been ( and sometimes still are) a significant influence in our lives. In a sense your “pastor” is right that if you continue studying the Scriptures then you will come to a better understanding of worship, but that may be a deeper understanding of the direction you are sensing now, rather than a reorientation to your pastor’s framework. My own experience was that after many years as a part of the church that I came to faith in Christ in, I began to experience difficulty, unrest and was ill at ease. As I reflect on it later I consider that the church I was part of was not allowing me to continue to grow into the person that God is continually calling me to be. My wife’s father had been part of planting that church and it was a long, difficult and painful process to come to the realisation that we were moving in a different direction, and needed to leave and find a community of people that we could do life in Christ with…
I love the raw honesty and authenticity in your post - the fundamental issues that God deals with are the internal workings of the human heart; issues of character and integrity, honesty and authenticity - the very things that you are sensing. The institutional model of church has been more concerned with external issues, with viewing how others DO, rather than how we ourselves are… God looks at the heart; my own individual heart is the place I ought to focus my attention first, before ever venturing to try to help, shape, edify, encourage or exhort anyone else… My journey in Christ continues to be first and foremost a journey of uncovering the real me… the me that God created me to be… the me that always was, but whom I had cloaked in the philosophy, mindset and sin of my culture. God loves me so much that the Godhead will accept me as I am and at the same time loves me too much to leave me that way. God encourages me, by all of the circumstances of life - good and bad - to take the opportunity to grow to be all that in God’s sight, I already am…
I am becoming me… which, because I am created in God’s image, is more like God… (different from becoming a god!) which I believe is what Paul is getting at at the end of 2 Cor 3
. In the following chapter, Paul then reminds us that the great truth and revelation that an infinite God has placed in our hearts is contained in a vessel that is finite and has flaws to overcome. Lest we become too self absorbed Paul moves on to describe to us the response of a human heart, having encountered the grace of God, that there’s an impulse to share our freedom with others caught in the bondage and blindness from which we have been released. That’s the motivation for mission – not simply some sense of proselytising to justify ourselves or to legitimise our choice of a god from the pantheon of gods available – it’s from a heart that wants to set others free to truly find who they are…
As I walk further into the freedom that is already mine, not yet perfected but hopefully with an increasingly authentic self-awareness, I become aware of deeper levels at which I have been living a life of untruth, sin and confusion. God reveals these limitations to me out of love for me, the desire to see me become who He already says I am - because God knows that the holistic integration of the aspects of body, soul and spirit is what leads us to living a life that is centred and at peace - regardless of what is happening externally. My journey is to become authentically me in Him, which means consistently asking the questions that you’re asking and speaking them out with a trusted other in prayer, confession and conversation.
I have been praying, confessing and conversing with a partner that I hold myself accountable to - every second Saturday morning at 6am for 2 to 3 hours, and have been doing that for over 8 years. He is a follower of Christ, a good husband and loving Father, a builder by trade, who is part of another Christian community. We don’t socialise together much, yet he now knows me in ways that others don’t… he encourages me to continue to find me and to be me… as I do with him. This partnership has been vital to my development as a person, as a man, as a husband, as a father, as a leader and as a follower of Jesus Christ.
As I journey further in my freedom I experience a greater desire to share what I have been given with others - not so much out of my “need to evangelise” in the sense you express it David, but precisely because I believe that integration of body, soul and spirit – which our culture rips apart – is actually fundamentally about “their needs,” and this holistic framework is available in Christ. As you’ve pointed out Penney, it is a “natural” conclusion of finding yourself. Being originally created in God’s image and now recreated in Christ, means that there is a fundamental inbuilt part of us that is fruitful and multiplies – in the world system ill-health is contagious, Jesus came to set us free and to institute a system that “good health” (I mean holistically, not just physically, emotionally etc) is transmittable and that we can impart that good news, sometimes using words… but we need to catch it first – and you are catching it. So I’d say enjoy discovering and being you in Christ…
Erik, I don’t sense that you’re pessimistic and I appreciate that it is a struggle. While I appreciate Artie’s articulation of exclusivity it has limitations - I’m not out to share my wife with anyone else, but I am out to share Christ.
I wonder if often the root issues in our struggle relate to a perceived lack of results, stemming from the influence of our goal-oriented, success-driven, materialist culture. How much does the influence of our fast-food, instant response culture lead us into impatience? I journeyed for ten years with a good friend, meeting together discussing the issues of the reality of Christianity - historically, theologically, practically - before he made a commitment to follow Christ. The journey together continues as one of discipleship in Christ and he’d say his life is better as a consequence.
Fundamentally it is about knowing who you are in Christ is a key, not just in inquiry groups, but in life itself. Truly knowing who you are in Christ leads to an awareness of margins and boundaries, and to development of a character of love and grace.
Beannachd Dia dhuit
A Celtic Son
Hullo-o-o David,
Initially I found myself laughing at the irony of your comment… if I was practicing less polite behaviour I’d call it bullshit, but that wouldn’t be polite…
Clearly you’re committed to your faith in some anti-“Christian bullshit”, which you feel the need to propagate. Do you recognize the hypocrisy of criticising others who propagate their faith, on the basis that they are propagating their faith, in exactly the same way that you are propagating yours? Is there any thought behind your criticism… do you possess a mirror?
Here’s a suggestion: take your own advice – just relate to people without breathing a word about your faith in whatever anti-”Christian bullshit” you’re committed to… What’s more important David? Your need to evangelise or our needs?
If you really want to avoid discussion of the fundamental theology and practice of Christianity then this would be a good blog to avoid!
Beannachd Dia dhuit
A Celtic Son
Touche Celtic Son. As you know, this dude pops up now and again to slag all things Christian. There is no dialogue and my encouragement to others here is that if you really want to talk to David, do so off this site because it inevitably co-opts the discussion away from the purposes of this blog.
“Knowing yourself in relationship to Christ’s Lordship” is a most important one for me for this whole process Erik.
If I could introduce the centred-set vs bounded-set concept into this discussion (if any of you are not familiar with this concept feel free to speak up) I have had my own boundaries challenged and even crossed on many occasions in interactions with non-Christians. Real encounter demands a certain amount of real vulnerability. Fake vulnerability doesn’t cut it. But how do we hold our faith together in that space? I think that is where Jesus is Lord comes in. That is the core affirmation which everything else revolves around. I find its earier to risk messiness in some particulars the clearer I am on that central affirmation.
Hullo-o-o Al,
Yeah I remember David and his syncretist views…
I made a longer comment replying to Penney and Erik prior to responding to David - my desktop is suggecting it is awaiting moderation…
Slaite
A Celtic Son
I have read and reread your last response Celtic Son several times for the sake of identifying with the previously stated “comfortable & uncomfortable Christian”. In truth, I have wrestled with this idea for several days.
Am I a comfortable Christian? In some sense of the word yes I am. Comfortable in knowing Christ’s presence in my life and the role of Lordship which he has over it. Comfortable in feeling drawn out; the inner search of who am I and where do I belong; what character development is within me towards the imago dei which we have spoken about. Comfortable in the fiery passion which drives my faith in the midst of hardship. And comfortable within the expressions and exploration of grace and relationship between me and those who I might respectfully disagree with.
But I have also been finding notes of increasing discomforts. Like you, I have felt uncomfortable in my church finding it confining and attractional in the sense of its purpose being solely drawn to serving only those who fit its membership bill. I have felt uncomfortable being unsupported and judged “outside of the community” simply for the desire to pursue relationships with those who might be considered as not fitting the “target audience”. I have felt uncomfortable struggling to see where I might “fit in” to my own community. In confession, I have felt uncomfortable trying to turn “talk” into “action” while others prefer to “maintain an even keel”. I am uncomfortable trying to do it all alone.
Am I am in error? Is this wrong to think? In truth, I do not know any more. The discipleship which you speak of is a great blessing and I think Alan is right in identifying a major spiritual crises here in NA as the lack of its serious practice and understanding.
With regards to your questions in understanding success I might add. How much does our model of success drive the level of support to which we are willing to give others in relationship to spirituality, emotional stability, intellectual equity, and physical wealth/material? Just some thoughts!
“I have felt uncomfortable being unsupported and judged “outside of the community” simply for the desire to pursue relationships with those who might be considered as not fitting the “target audience”. I have felt uncomfortable struggling to see where I might “fit in” to my own community … Am I am in error?”
If you are we all are, mate, welcome to the club!
Hullo-o-o Erik…
the questions that you are wrestling with are the questions that I believe ALL followers of Jesus should constantly be wrestling with. Sadly the institutional forms of church tend to keep us so busy, often within a programmatic framework, that we don’t have sufficient time (or we fail to set aside sufficient time?) to question whether the framework itself is valid. We settle into routine and there is little or no opportunity to raise questions or concerns – those few who do are generally considered “rebellious” and ostracized.
The relationship between church and the culture we find ourselves in ought to always be a source of discomfort – are we compromising elements of our faith to reach people or are we uncompromising on religious traditions that exclude people and are actually inconsistent with Biblical truth? The kinds of questions that you are asking ought to be continually in our hearts, as we negotiate the relationships we have within the community God has planted us in. They are difficult, demanding questions to answer – it is easier to develop a programme that keeps those already within the church comfortable, and then just let it roll along…
We need to ask questions about where we get our ideas from, including the idea that there is a “target audience” for the church, it doesn’t come from Christ or the pages of the Bible? It is generally true, from a sociological perspective, that when a church gathers there will be elements of demographic consistency across the community of people who connect – but there ought also to be people who don’t “fit” the general trends, because we are seeking to welcome the alien and the unloved.
According to James, particularly in chapter 1 verses 22 to 27 of his letter, here is ultimately no place for talk that doesn’t result in action. I also appreciate your additional observations about our “success” mentality… it has become a wrong focus in the church. We need to invest in who and what God calls us to invest in, rather than in what will bring the greatest material return in the shortest time…
I don’t think you’re in error, I think you have a sense of the gravity of the situation and a growing sense of your responsibility to do something about it… Don’t underestimate God’s ability to use you to initiate His plan for your community. Initially in my circumstance I did, I considered (and still do!) that I am unworthy, incapable and limited… but I was strongly sensing the injustice of the world and the failure of Christianity as we presented it to make a difference. I gave up a staff position and salary at our church, at a time when my wife was expecting our first child, because of our growing conviction that we were too focused on simply putting on a good Sunday show and not enough about the things that were really important to Jesus.
Two other families joined with us and now 8 years later we have a thriving community of Christ followers, where previously there had been a number of unsuccessful attempts to plant a church. We are actively involved in all levels of our community – we run a playgroup in a local state school in partnership with the school and the community, we run day programmes for senior people, we run a drop in for young parents and their kids, we run a youth programme for local young people – and two of us are community members of the management committee of the local secular youth service, sitting alongside our local MP. We have people on Parent’s committees in schools, and we give an annual financial gift to the libraries of the local schools, to purchase books that establish family values. We run fundraising events in the community – we’re currently running a bingo night for up to 250 people in the local pub, raising funds to house AID’s orphans in Africa. Our local community have come to us, asking us to help with community events and asking us to donate financially to their causes.
I could go on and on… we do all of this in a variety of different local facilities which we rent for the purpose. We don’t own a building and less than half of our overall income is taken up in salaries – we have two part time workers and dozens of volunteers. We gather every Sunday, share communion and worship God, celebrating what He has been doing, in and through us in our local community. Our Sunday service would not look unlike most other contemporary church services, except that the people are passionate about what goes on elsewhere in our lives – there are testimonies and passionate prayers. Sunday is a highlight because we get to share our lives in Christ together, but Sunday is not THE church, it is not IT for us…
One day I realised that God had gone before me into the world and was calling me to be a co-worker with Him on co-mission with Jesus. I realised that I didn’t need to be worthy, capable and limitless, because He is and I’m simply joining in His business. Maybe He’s calling you to step out too Erik… Just some thoughts!
Beannachd Dia dhuit (The blessings of God be with you)
A Celtic Son
Celtic Son, Thank you, I really need to hear what you posted. I printed it out this entire discussion as a reminder in the future.
Erik, Matt has a wonderful post on, “How To Survive The Church”.
Thanks Penny! I will look for it!
Here’s the direct link for those interested
http://mattstone.blogs.com/journeysinbetween/2007/07/how-to-survive-.html
Oh, and thanks Penney, it always encourages me when others find encouragement from it.
Hullo-o-o Penney…
like Matt it’s good to find that your attempts to express truth have been an encouragement to others
Slainte