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24 Responses to “apostolic ministry in denominations??”

1. Patrick on May 17th, 2008 11:28 pm

   “The apostolic denominational leader needs to be a visionary.”

   This is where I get a little bit disagreeing. It seems the emphasis is on having yet one more “just right leader” and that seems to be just the issue we don’t need. We don’t need the knight in shining armor to save us.

   Lord knows we certainly don’t need little popes in each denomination.

   The heavy emphasis on leader brings to the front just the wrong sorts of people for this kind of lasting change.

   What we need is to empower people so not to give over their Spirit empowered callings over to visionary leaders. What we need is not yet one more top down re-structuring according to the Spirit of this age (or whatever age), but an entire dismantling of the sorts of leadership salvation plans that are often quite delightful in the first generation but then get filled by maintainers in the second and third and so on.

   Scripture doesn’t talk near about visionary leaders as we do in today’s church. It talks about people, and the Spirit, and the direct tasks.

   We have a glut of leaders. Everyone is a leader. We’re all looking for, developing, emphasizing, finding, empowering leaders.

   We don’t need more leaders or another messiah to save our systems from failure.

   We need structural changes that de-emphasize leaders and their natural, not spiritual, charisma so that people engage in mission within the leadership of the head, Christ, and the power, the Spirit that Scripture emphasizes.

2. alan hirsch on May 18th, 2008 3:08 am

   Good point Patrick. As you know, I don’t associate the gift primarily with that of a leader but that of all of God’s people, some of whom will be leaders.

3. Patrick on May 18th, 2008 4:17 am

   Alan, that’s why I like you so much. Well, and because of your hair and t-shirts too.

   Forgotten Ways has been so refreshing to me since I first read it precisely because of how you’ve developed apostolic gifting.

   I guess I hear “leader” these days and get a little loopy. I think it’s shell shock.

4. Erik on May 18th, 2008 5:14 am

   I must first confess that this has been an emotional week for me. Apostolic practices towards new pictures of the church and the way we practice ecclesia can seem to be diverse in place and space when considering “Home, Work, and Third Place environments. Steve’s quote however, seems to be pointing to the ways in which missional values can begin to be brought into the “work” or larger corporate church environments. When considering the three places of communal ecclesia, can the Missio Dei not also be found within all three contexts? Perhaps… in its comparison/overlap with centered set projections?

   As I had mentioned, this has been an emotional weekend which is why I asked this question. In the hopes and vision for a “Third Place” picture of ecclesia I shared this vision with our local corporate church. The response was in defense to “what a church is” (i.e. large gathering of believers). The feeling was that by saying “church” could be found in a different context or place would mean the corporate gathering which already exists would loose its meaning or significance. At the same time the question was asked “What makes a Third Place a church and how is it different from being just a business?”

   I hope it is o.k. to ask these questions.

5. Janet on May 18th, 2008 4:40 pm

   They’re great questions!

   Some “third place” ministries are conducted in outisde venues… eg a group of Christians who meet in a pub / club / cafe in order to connect with people… they are simply customers, who may book a room at times if wanting to conduct more intense discussions about Christianity, or practice overt prayer or worship. It’s the simplest way to conduct a third place ministry, although you need a good relationship with the business owners.

   Some Christians are led to start up something like a cafe or community centre for a focus of ministry… and then it IS both a business and a ministry. It’s important to have a few “hard heads” with financial and business skills involved if so, as well as some ministry hearted visionaries and evangelists and pastoral types for the mission. You can end up in a serious financial position (and lose sympathy from your church if they have to underwrite an unviable business venture) if homework isn’t done well here. But the difference between “just” a business and a both/and business/ministry is the intent… not simply to make money, but to make disciples!!!

   I’m not sure whether you’ve shared your vision with the whole church (in which case you’d have a lot of shocked people) or the church leadership (where you might have a few shocked people!)… but what is church is a theological question that needs a bit of unpacking.

   “Ecclesia” meant assembly or gathering in Greek… therefore the word for church was simply a gathering. Christians gathered in homes (or catacombs) in the early centuries of the church… a few Christians set up dedicated chapels in this time, but as Christianity was an illegal religion these were confiscated anyway in flare ups of persecution… so they were definitely the exception rather than the rule.

   So the idea that church = building is not a biblical idea or an early church practice. Nor can “church” mean a large gathering of people in places like China, where gatherings of more than 10 people is illegal… but these tiny house churches are still churches!

   However… the building thing is deeply in the psyche of people, and the gathering to sing together and hear a sermon is deeply in the psyche of the people, and the theological unpacking might take a bit of time.

   One useful thing that Alan Roxburg talks about is that 10 % of the people in the congregation are open to change… so work with those people to start up ministries alongside the “business as usual” church. It will change the culture of the business as usual church over time… especially as new people do come to faith!

   That’s a very quick response… I’m sure others will have lots of words of wisdom. I will pray for you!

6. Matt Stone on May 18th, 2008 9:27 pm

   Patrick’s comments resonate with me and in a way mirror my comments on your last post Alan, except here relating to denominational leadership rather than a church leadership. It’s that, while I affirm apostolic leadership at the helm is ideal, often we have to work with practical realities that are rather different. The question then becomes, how can one help nurture an apostolic environment anyway, in less than ideal environments? To what extent should leadership and influence be defined institutionally? Just as activists have long recognized there are differences between institutional authority and moral authority, and that they aren’t always vested in the same people, maybe we could consider whether there are different modes of leadership within community, and whether they are not always vested in the same people?

7. Eleanor Burne-Jones on May 19th, 2008 5:04 am

   If it is any consolation once the church really reaches meltdown point in decline in a neighbourhood, the only way is a new beginning altogether. What this means here in Penzance is that any new work needs to form with children and teens, see them through their various transitions, and recreate the church that way. It isn’t possible to revive most of the local congregations here.

   This is paradoxically an opportunity for innovation and much needed change in the way we are church.

8. Matt Stone on May 19th, 2008 11:06 am

   Eleanor, if I recall correctly, the Chinese character for “change” is made up of “crisis” and “opportunity”. Interesting eh? I agree that often the best opportunities for change occur only after communities realize they are in abject crisis. Accordingly I don’t see the necessary changes as likely to emerge out of the more successful appearing denominations and churches.

9. Lucy J on May 19th, 2008 2:43 pm

   I’d like to contribute this thought to the discussion at this point… Sometimes I think our ‘western’ mindsets pay too little attention to various ways of understanding TIME. We often think way too linear and could do with appreciating, cycles, seasons, and the concept of “kairos” time which is opportune time, a time which is “right” for things to happen… when people, place, chronological time and perhaps other components intersect to create a window of opportunity for something to happen then, in a way that could not have occurred otherwise! I’m not an expert in Chinese script, but one thing I think Matt was alluding to was the character for “Crisis” consisting of the symbols for danger and opportunity. Maybe it’s a season for the Apostolic to be released and realised…. It does seem to be the season for something desperately new to be occurring in the institutionalised sectors of “the church” where that institutionalisation has resulted in a life-threatening status quo situation. Chronologically speaking, those of us alive now, better seize the opportunity! And speaking of Chinese… I think that the recent earthquake and dam damage news from China is an incredible ‘sign of the times’… it’s the biggest dam project in recorded history… a man-made solution built on a massive seismic fault line!!!!!
   Looking forward to humbly riding the wave with Jesus and you all,
   Lucy J

10. Erik on May 20th, 2008 5:34 am

    I too resonate with this picture of a decentralized authority of “leadership” that Patrick and Matt refer to in contrast to the hierarchal picture/model. But how can Apostolic gifting in and of itself replace that ideology? Does not APEST include an equal balance of Apostolic to that of Prophetic, Evangelistic, and so on? If you replace and reshape the practices of hierarchal leadership with the mandate of Apostolic centralization, does it then not become ideological itself?!

    Bob Goudzwaard talks about leadership being much more like a satellite which through human “movement” is launched into a global orbit. In this sense, leadership itself takes on the essence of an identity of its own. No longer any one person, place, and position but purely revealed through context, space, and time. Similarly to the idea of “Kairos” that Lucy speaks of.

    To speak of needed change in church growth dynamics is an understatement for sure. However, change is needed today and it begins today. If we only find focus on youth and children as the “future of tomorrow” then change will always be in the future and tomorrow. Biblically I find Jesus saying, “Let the little children come on to me.” Yet he was also there for the Nicodemus’, the Pharisee’s and Sadducees, the shepherds, and the Roman Centurions.

    Thanks so much for the encouraging comment Janet. You are so right and I too find those same values in the practices of ecclesia. I understand their potentialities to praxis and get rather excited to see how visionaries and dreamers like us find new expressions of them. But, in truth, my question and trouble in communicating with the leadership of my wife’s and my home church is in their feelings of attack against the larger gathering of mission and purpose which currently exist. In some ways I am simply wondering “Yes, apostolic genius can lead to ecclesia in Third Place or even Home Place spaces. But, can it also still exist in the larger corporate gatherings of ecclesia as well if context and culture fit with calling/mission and vision?”

    I think the leadership aside from their questions of “is it just a business”, is fearful that by saying that I feel called to the vision of a Third Place missional church plant that I am against the missional calling of larger corporate gathering. Forgive me for asking if this comes across offensively or bluntly but Alan, in truth they are asking this of your thoughts as well. I only ask because I believe strongly in the call to go directly to your brother in Christ.

    Thanks for letting me voice these thoughts. I hope they are not offensive and if they are I apologize sincerely!

11. Matt Stone on May 20th, 2008 12:30 pm

    Lucy, thanks for the correction with the Chinese script. I think my recollection was a bit off kilter and affirm that was what you said was what I was trying to get at. I also totally agree with your comments on timing. I think we have a major crisis now which provides an opportunity but we also have to be alert for more local crisis moments and act in accord with them. Sometimes this calls for patience and perserverance in the interrim; choosing your battles so to speak. Alan, have you ever read Sun Tzu’s “The Art of War”? I think you’ll like it

    Erik, in considering your question, “But how can Apostolic gifting in and of itself replace that ideology?” I am drawn to consider how much jail time the apostle Paul had to endure and how much internal resistance from “super apostles” he experienced. While Paul certainly instituted many a church, he did not change the dominant ideologies of his day by seizing the reigns of institutional power in “pagan” ways. Rather, he due attention to the paradoxical power of weakness through his lifestyle and conversations. Now, I think this suggests that even where apostolic types do have institutional power there needs to be caution as to how it is applied. “Forcing” pastoral types to conform with an apostolic agenda could cause problems too. Again I think a big part of the apostolic calling is to inspire by leading by example.

12. Lucy J on May 21st, 2008 3:49 pm

    Yeah, Matt, I think the slogan “think global, act local” has several applications. It would be good if people in leadership realised that there was a valid variety and a combination of approaches to getting things done as described in Eph 4 and that they might benefit from using the ‘hats’ concept to get along together and have a richer experience of being and doing together, like Alan describes in his latest Leadership article post. We can sure pray for more co-operation and appreciation, can’t we, as well as work towards that on our own little localised patch of turf?

    Lucy J

13. Tim C on May 24th, 2008 11:48 am

    I think the idea of an apostolic presence within the institution is a flicker of a flame. But we have to remember that apostolic gifting does not function well in the institution. It takes a unique recipe to pull off new wine in old wineskins. I have seen it happen before, but the guy who pulled it off was an extremely seasoned guy in working with inst. church and the leadership there was unusually committed to change.

    So where does that leave the institution? I think there are a lot oways to utilize the space and resources of institutional churches. For example, where we live, we are doing the simple missional church thing. We are reaching out to the inst. church and helping them to use their properties to plant gardens which will feed the poor and also become a platform for helping people to grow their own food in their back yard. This has been a cool way to model to the inst. church an organic, missional way of engaging people. We can see some new “festivals” emerging out of this and some authentic eating in peoples homes with the new foods grown. This is just a way for us to not totally abndon and isolate ourselves from the inst. church. We think there are some “seeds to be sown”, if you will, to help people se another way of being on mission.

14. Janet on May 25th, 2008 2:45 pm

    Hey Erik… I’m catching up on TFG after an insanely busy week (had a wonderful, wonderful women’s conference yesterday… one of those chairos moments where God shows up… such a blessing!)

    Anyway… thought I’d throw in a few quick thoughts. I had an interesting insight about change from Dr Jeff Pugh, who spoke at our minister’s retreat recently. He talked about “Object Relations Theory”, and how infants develop into healthy human beings:

    1 all children need “adequate holding environments”
    2 anxieties are helped through “transitional objects”
    3 adult regression to neurotic patterns happen in anxious times
    4 Life is a journey of reparation for psychological damage done to others and a desire for wholeness, rather than a division between childish good vs bad objects. We long for harmony between our internal and external worlds.

    A “holding environment” for an infant is its mother’s arms… a transtional object might be a teddy, a security blanket, or a dummy, etc.

    He argued that good leaders provide “adequate holding environments”… they are dependable, staying strongly connected with people, encouraging their contribution.

    Other points:

    Good leaders foster Salvation-Historically based spirituality. Such dependable faith is a critical “transitional object”, unlike “sheer enthusiasm” (ie teaching the whole of scripture and God’s work in history holds people in the faith when you can’t be there!)

    Accept differences, not as a moral nor terrifying phenomena.

    Good churches theolgically speaking help people mature psychodynamically speaking.

    They will help each individual discover and express their true contribution.

    They will develop the capacity to worship meaningfullyin terms of the reliable historical deeds of salvation history (as opposed to narcissistically as a idealization of self. God images need to be “three dimmensional”)

    Teach people how to pray with confidence.

    I hope some of that makes sense… it just reminded me that for your house church community, it’s really important to accept people where they’re at… to be a safe “holding environment”… and to keep affirming for you it’s not either/or but both/and… the larger gatherings are important to people (they are of value), but you feel called to interact missionally with people who may never come to large church gatherings. Your intent is not to attack large gatherings but to complement them… to experiment in mission. (”experiment” is a pretty non-threatening term)

    Servant style leadership that affirms difference, rather than a coersive: “I’ve been called to this mission and you must now all do what I say and join in” seems to fit your context as I understand it. In any group you’ll have “quick adapters” and “slow adapters”… they’re all just as loved by God.

    Your acceptance of the views of others validates differences within the group… differences in opinion and in spheres of service.

    I know that’s a bit of a ramble… I’m happy to hear more from you about what God’s showing you and what’s happening with your group.

15. Janet on May 25th, 2008 2:48 pm

    Alan… I wonder if you’ve answered Erik’s question at 10 elsewhere?

16. Eleanor Burne-Jones on May 25th, 2008 7:26 pm

    I love what Tim C says about retaining a productive link with the institutional churches. I wish ours had gardens! :0) One does have a spectacularly placed old graveyard, now with benches and planted up, where people can sit and gaze out over the bay.

    I think Janet has brought great points from Dr Jeff Pugh. It nets so well point by point: Adequate holding environments bring to mind the serious challenges of working with some of our local young people, and the desperate sense I had that the church here has now declined beyond being able to provide that. We have instinctively aimed to create transitional objects of various forms in discipleship groups, journey markers but also reminders of the security underpinning the group and the pilgrims. The third point rings true in that we are all at our worst (and best) in conflict, and situations of church conflict show how people function at their deepest levels. All the pretense is stripped away in that situation, which is what makes good conflict resolution/transformation so crucial in churches.

    It is definitely the observation amongst those who trained us in planting that people need and look on the whole for depth in church gatherings - not necessarily intimacy, but a sense of being in a safe place in which to be challenged to grow, which I understand from as creating those inner integrities, joining up the dots in our inner lives.

    Great insight.
    Blessings!

17. Erik on May 26th, 2008 9:18 am

    Matt, I must admit to wishing you and I could chat face to face over coffee with regards to your last comment. This picture of Paul and the “super apostles” has stuck with me for the last several days! In truth, I meant the question originally in a more rhetorical sense but in view of your thoughts it has caused me to look deeper at the way in which we project mDNA in the current modern motif.

    In other wordings, do we communicate the need for missional change through “evolution or revolution”? In honesty, neither seems appealing to me! The “micro-footsteps” of evolutionary “tip-toeing” seems to make smaller change within existing structures/int. but, if Dr. Martin L. King never radically stepped forward with his great dream in non-violent protest I’m not sure freedom would have lasted. If Gandhi had not taken his great march, I’m not sure India would have found independence!

    On the other side of things, revolutionary tactics creates a huge rift which can “damage” a lot of people. I think the Zealots in Jesus’ time are a prime example.

    This question of finding balance between the two leads me back to your thoughts on Paul and the “super apostles”. I must admit to being a little like Peter… I don’t wait for the boat to get to the shore. Quit often I see Jesus in the midst and am quickly jumping ship for the shore line. Problem is, half way there I begin to recognize the depth and murkiness of the water and wondering what’s taking the ship so long to catch up. You are right in that those moments require the element of powerlessness, to let the essence of weakness clarify character and relational dependence both on community and Jesus. We do not want to be in the shoes of the “super apostles” themselves!

    Still… how do we find balance? When is “jail time” and “non-violent” protest warranted?

    By the way, I have read Sun Tzu’s work by the way and it is a phenomenal read. John Minford’s translation was particularly good I thought as he used the other ancient writings of The Six Quivers, The Way and Its Power, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, The Book of Changes, and several others.

    Janet, these are great thoughts from your conference and Dr. Jeff Pugh. Thanks for sharing them as I will reflect on there role in Expressions. Truth is, our house gathering is pretty small right now (perhaps, just due to space). It is our mission minded groups that seem to have the greater collection of people.

    That said, my earlier comment came from my sharing an idea with the leadership of our larger gathering of church (MTC) to take Expressions into a Third Place or Proximity spaced gathering (i.e. - a coffee shop). The reaction was two fold as described in my comment #4.

    We have continued dialoguing over the passed week and I think it was not so much an element of “force” as it was misunderstandings between the two of us relationally. I would like to say perhaps, I need to reflect a little more on the “transitional” elements you and Matt talked about and its introduction of mDNA into MTC. Thanks so much!

18. Janet on May 26th, 2008 8:02 pm

    Eleanor… I know your time is precious, but given my perception of the church you are working with you might be interested in a look at Jeff Pugh’s research on change in dysfunctional churches (http://www.amazon.ca/Fantasyland-Redemptive-Ethical-Lectors-Neurotic/dp/3836428962/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211795022&sr=1-18)… small print run and expensive though!

    One of the ministers who works with an emergent missional styled group found the insights from the ministers’ gathering extremely helpful… Christians are people, (so what is true psychologically of people is true of Christians)and Churches are groups of people (so what is true of group dynamics… healthy and unhealthy… is true of churches.)There are more ways of being unhealthy than of being healthy, alas… I might fill in on more of this when time permits.

    Erik… I can relate to the image of leaping out of the boat and running ahead… I’m better at innovating than at leading, alas… the latter is slow and requires a lot of relational work! Anyway… God graciously uses us as we are, while gently inviting us to grow…

19. Eleanor Burne-Jones on May 26th, 2008 10:25 pm

    Many thanks Janet, I will check out that link. In our network there’s a mix of those who think rebooting might be possible still within denominations and those like myself who have moved away from looking at that as being realistic - the time when that was generally a viable possibility I think passed about 30-40 yrs ago in the UK. The denominations made their decisions not to change, if such a decision was ever open for discussion. I think by their choices it is clear this outcome was what they wanted, unconsciously or otherwise. They made choices and there’s no point in doing an autopsy on that now. The denominations will have almost no presence in Cornwall from what we can see in maybe 10-15 yrs so the believers here will likely be in a new form of gathering if gathered at all. I’m also laity (regionally acknowledged Sister) so there’s no part I could play in such a venture as trying to reboot a congregation. The clergy deal with such things, and laity know their place in Cornwall! lol

    So I’m in a (happily growing) planters and fresh expressions of church network which I set up last autumn, and I’m simply looking at what can be done outside denominations, and in those wide open spaces of creative possibility, uncertainty and total lack of funding! :0)

20. Janet on May 27th, 2008 7:34 am

    Well, funding or no funding, you know what they say… it’s easier to birth a baby than to raise the dead!

    And exciting too… what you put in the DNA and the “early nurture” of your movement will have a profound impact on its character.

21. Matt Stone on May 27th, 2008 8:10 am

    Erik, yes I chafe at the limitations of online discussion too. As for Peter, I’ve done my fair share of leaping out of the boat, only to see the ground was less than solid.

    As for Paul, in the last few years, particularly the last 1-2 years, God has been teaching me much more about endurance. This is a marathon, this shift to missional Christianity, not a sprint. We should be alert to opportunities, and take advantages of slip streams and the terrain when we can, but much more important is that we to stick to the path relentlessly. Model it relentlessly.

    In this I think it is important to distinguish between strategy and tactics, and this is where Sun Tsu comes into the discussion again. We can have fantastic tactics and be full of enthusiasm but if our strategy is unclear or ill founded then our energies will be unfocussed and misdirected. Seizing the rains of institutional power is a tactic, and its a tactic we must be careful about, as it has potential to undermine everything, if our ultimate strategy is to move beyond institutionalism.

22. Eleanor Burne-Jones on May 28th, 2008 2:40 pm

    While on the subject of Sun Tzu, someone (whose denomination wishes to remain anonymous) recommended this on their blog this morning:
    http://www.proft.org/tips/evil.html
    sorry, lol…

23. Lucy J on May 28th, 2008 3:25 pm

    In view of a couple of very distressing ministry-squashing situations that people I love dearly in my family and my Christian fellowship family, it was great to LOVVVVVL in reading the recommended link. The sad part is that it’s only so very funny because of the scary accuracy of the analogy!
    Lucy J

24. Janet on June 4th, 2008 1:11 pm

    Oh Eleanor… I’ve found a free link to the notes used by Jeff Pugh on our minister’s retreat, if you’d like a “sticky beak”:

    http://cofcaustralia.org/cofc-cms/images/stories/CofCVicTas/mins%20day%209-5-08%20jeff%20pugh%20booklet.pdf?PHPSESSID=6044b43e1c542cedd6c8b37d2026a75d

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