A stroke of (Apostolic) Genius
Missional church requires a missional ministry and leadership system. For the most part, the Christendom church obscured the need for a fully fledged missional leadership system because the self understanding of the church became fundamentally non-missional. Because all citizens were deemed to be Christians all what was really needed were the pastoral and teaching ministries to care for and teach the congregation. These were eventually instituted as offices in the church and became the principal metaphors for church leadership. The net effect is that the whole system weighted itself in favor of maintenance and pastoral care and that these became hegemonic in practice and therefore and both fragmented and distorted the total mission and ministry of the church in favor of only part of its calling.
A direct consequence of this was that the apostolic, the prophetic, and the evangelistic, ministries and leadership styles were marginalized and effectively ‘exiled’ from the church’s official ministry and leadership. This is not to say that these ministries have totally disappeared. Far from it: many within current and historical church life have exercised these ministries without specifically being tagged ‘apostles’ or ‘prophets’, but by and large these lacked formal legitimacy and recognition and they have tended to be exercised outside of the context of the local church, denominational systems, and seminaries. This ‘exiling’ in part gave rise to the development of parachurch agencies and missional orders, each with a somewhat atomized ministry focus. E.g. the Navigators arose out of a calling to evangelize and disciple people outside of the church structures because the church was not effective (or interested?) in this. Sojourners emerged to represent the social justice concerns that the church by and large ignores. World Vision as an Aid and Development agency, etc. But in these were generally initiated and maintained the APE type leadership styles. This divorce of APE from PT has been disastrous for the local church and has damaged the cause of Christ and his mission.
In order to understand the different nature of each of these ministries we need to briefly explore the core task/functions of each, the effect when it monopolizes and dominates in isolation from the others, and the effect when it is integrated with the other ministries. The easiest way to do this is within a comparative table. It is as follows…
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Alan… that table is almost impossible to read on my screen… can you do something with the font please?
Hi Janet - right click the image and the click and it will open up in full glorious detail
Shalom
G
D’oh!
Alan,
So if the basic pastoral/teaching role finds its roots in the imperial church then why do we still hold on to it today? I assume there is still a need, but what needs to change in order for the other offices to hold as much sway as pastor.
tom.my-center.net
Tom, there is a need for Pastors and Teachers…of course. But we need to broaden beyond that.
Alan
To what, historically or otherwise, do you attribute the gradual development of the junk drawer term of “pastor” as the be all and end all role in church leadership or prominence?
Great stuff bro…
The politics of status quo!
Ok. Ok. But I can’t let it go that easily. It only digs a deeper hole of questions for me at this point. Why did THAT become the status quo v. the ethos of an apostolic team? What contributed to it more specifically I guess…
Thanks!
Love the chart - very helpful.
To give a simplistic answer… if you assume that everyone is Christian, baptisted into the faith soon after birth, there’s no need for apostles to plant new churches (everyone is already part of the church), there’s no need for evangelists (everyone is already Christian) and there’s no need for prophetic ministry because everyone accepts the canon of scripture and the teaching of the church via priests… this is accepted as the voice of God.
So if everyone is Christian and the church is the voice of God to the people, the task of the priests is to teach the doctrines of the church and to care for the “flock” who get sick or poor or distressed… assisted by the nuns and relevant orders of monks. ie the role of the church leader is only pastor/teacher not prophet, evangelist or apostle.
Throughout church history there have been “apostolic stirrings”… but they found their space more in missionary orders, or in the last couple of hundred years or so, in missionary societies, parachurch groups, and some new denominations. This suggests the church itself found mission so foreign it needed to distance itself from mission!
In the 21st century the world doesn’t look like a Christian empire anywhere I can think of… which is why looking back to the dynamism of the early church and the dynamics of leadership that release the church in mission is so relevant for our time.
Jan said it for me Mike. the only thing I would add is that all systems tend towards the status quo…equilibrium. When we institutionalize, anyone who rocks the boat (aka AP+E type ministry) will be deligitimized. Sadly this is true for all organizations, but ewven more tragic consequences for th church as we are called to be missional to the core and back. The loss of missional ministry is disasterous.
I’ve just had a bit of a flick through an introductory church history text (as you do!!!) and am reminded that Europe was a Christian empire for a LOOOOONNNG time… and even after the fragmentation of the reformation the vast majority of people were just baptised into the state church of wherever they happened to live. It’s not suprising that our theology (and our ecclesiology in particular) is deeply shaped by this heritage.
Living in a pluralistic society rather than a Christian Empire compels us once more to look at “the forgotten ways” of the early church… not to replicate everything culturally, but to understand the spiritual and missional dynamics of a period of great expansion of the church in a culturally diverse (and hostile) empire.
More musings on our Christian history… it seems astonishing to us now, but for a long time in Europe one could be persecuted (even put to death) for “heretical” ideas… so close was the relationship between the law of the church and the law of the land. (John Locke’s “Letter Concerning Toleration” was a widely publicized one around the time of the enlightenment, questionning whether religious conviction should come under governmental law… he argued quite persuasively this should not be the case!)
It’s no wonder the art of gentle persuasion (evangelism) wasn’t seen as a priority for the church… it had more compelling strategies at its disposal!
Off the track a little I know, but interesting.
If you “assume that everyone is Christian, baptisted into the faith soon after birth” it also means that even when you do have evangelists it is likely that your understanding of (1) evangelism and (2) the evangel will very likely be horrendously distorted. That is the premise of a VERY thought provoking book I have been reading, Evangelism After Christendom.
How much of the numbers fixation in contempary evangelical Christianity is a hangover of Christendom, from an era when it was assumed that everyone SHOULD be a Christian? Is the made scramble for numbers, using the best that marketing and money can buy, more like a sell out to consumerism than a sign of faithfulness and integrity? Is revival (of Christendom?) something we should possibly pray AGAINST?
Turning to the gospel, I would contend that what we are used to dishing out as the gospel is not the gospel. If we turn to Acts the good news is that Jesus is risen and he is Lord. Again and again. Yes he died, but he is risen. Find me anywhere in Acts where penal substitution was preached as the gospel. Penal substitution is an atonement model. In Christendom atonment models became confused with the gospel because people were assumed to already know about the basic story of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. In moving beyond Christendom we need to recover the orignial message, Jesus is risen and he is Lord. I commend Alan for putting the Lordship of Jesus at the centre of his model. The forgotten ways of apostles, prophets and evangelists do indeed need to be recovered if western Christianity is to recover its integrity … but it may mean a loss of influence, power and money.
Right on Matt. This whole idea og the good news and efining it is a major quest for me, and I think should be of ecvery person with an apostolic/teaching gift. I read a great book about this called Recovering the Scandall of the cross, with another book called Understanding the atonement fo rthe Mission of the Church. They are dynomite on this topic.
Thanks guys! This has been a very beneficial post and conversation!
Alan - Me, my wife and another couple heard you speak in Florida a few months back, and it was simply put, awesome. Listening to you is kind of like drinking a fine wine. Very complex at the onset, but opens up and you just love it after you’ve had time digest it. Anyway, sorry for the tangent there. If the church does not change it’s thinking, we are in for a disaster I’m afraid. By that I mean we have become so comfortable and complacent that we forget to talk about Jesus, but are more concerned if the “audience” thought it was “good” The name of Jesus is rarely mentioned, and when it is it’s tossed around like a surname “jones” or “mccoys” We have become so concerned with our own people, and making them comfortable, that we have lost the drive from leadership on going out and engageing our culture. Build a bigger building, make up a great program and lure them in. Then we don’t have to get our hands dirty, they can come to us “if they want” I didn’t sign up for the hard work! My prayer is that the hearts of His people will be touched and we will go into the world, but not be of the world, and not wait for them to come to us. After all at the end of Matthew when Jesus give us the great suggestion…er commandment, I certainly don’t remember Him saying…Now preach a good sermon and they will come. I remember Him saying something to the tune of “go”
Keep up the great work…Jesus is smiling!
Tim,
Have you read Proclaiming the Scandal of the Cross? Same author. Follow up book with more practical focus. Recommend it if you liked the other one. The one that is really impacting me at the moment though is Evangelism After Christendom as previously mentioned.
Rock on, I am glad you referred it to me. I need some more practical stuf fin this area.
It seems to me we are in an institutional vacuum. No matter what we do, we are headed that way. Are we just doomed to keep repeating cycles of institutionailization and rebirth, or can an org or community find the sweet spot? Is it a dream, or can it be a reality? Thoughts out there?
I don’t see institutionalization as necessarily a bad thing, in fact I would say its a valid shepherding function, it provides stability for the movement. The problems is, as Alan says, when shepherds aren’t balanced out with apostles, prophets and evangelists. That’s when institutions ossify and develop organizational osteoporosis. I would say a healthy situation is where institionalization and innovation is working in dynamic tension. Consider that FORGE is not without its institutional dimensions. Consider also that too much innovation can dilute movement focus, energy, stability and coherance. I am not confident we can avoid swings and organizational life cycles altogether but I am confident that extreme swings are far from inevitable or necessary.
Matt
Wouldn’t you say there is a difference between institutional structures and organic structures?
In response to the latest posts…
talks about ‘the world’ being peripheral to the church, not the church being peripheral to ‘the world’. If the church is not in truth (God-centric), then it’s likely that its eccentricity and egocentricity are patterned after the things of ‘the world’ resulting in a ‘parallel universe’ mutation of the quintessential Gospel message. Re-patterning revolution… that’s what I’m praying for and with God’s help, trying my best to live out in my personal context. That’s why I am finding Alan’s explorations, conversations and documentations so inspiring at this time. Get back to the mDNA pattern… the blueprint of the church that Jesus Christ is building. Maybe, I would be considered heretical, but I have to say that although I truly revere the gracious reality and power of the Christ of the cross and resurrection in my life, I am mostly inspired by the Gospel that Jesus himself preached about - the year of Jubilee - Isaiah 61
/Luke 4
and the reality of which his life and ministry made/makes possible for us all! Christus Victor!
I am not praying for ‘revival’ anymore. I’m praying for ‘revolution’! The kind of revolution where the church is revolving around the truth of the Trinitarian God who is at the centre of the universe. Ephesians 1
Lucy J
Mike, you’re right…I think there is a difference between institutional-ism and appropriate structure. The way I see it is institutionalism if the process whereby the structure originally set up to support the organizational cause and message ends up supplanting it.
I suppose I can be generous and say that institutions are not bad, but institutionalism is always bad. But I say it reluctantly
re the names given to leaders in the church…
I think contemporary churches wanted to move away from calling their leader a “minister” “because we’re all ministers”. For want of a term for their paid leaders, they went with “pastor”…
The irony is, the traditional church “minister” tends to do largely pastoral work, while the contemporary church “pastor” does more of the APEST range, and would often be better described as a minister!
I use the words institution and institutionalization in the broad sense.
For instance, the http://www.answers.com definition for “institution” includes: “The act of instituting. A custom, practice, relationship, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society: the institutions of marriage and the family.”
This broader sense includes any structure, including organic ones in my mind. Even within organic movements we can have customs and patterns, even ones that are quite ancient.
To continue, the given definition for “institionalization” is: “The process by which social units and social activities become organized in a relatively permanent and enduring way.”
I don’t think anyone here is suggesting APEST style organization should be a blip in ecclesiological history.
The problem is, as Alan says, when organizational preservation becomes an aim in itself. No argument there. So I don’t think we’re in any disagreement deep down. In terms of the word though, you both seem to be using a more restricted definition than I am. To avoid a confusion of tongues I’ll shift words. What you call institutionalization I’ll call organizational narcissism. What I call institutionalization I’ll simply call organizing.
Eric, wouldn’t it be nice to go back to the Biblical language of overseers, and reframe the role as providing oversight for the ministry and mission that the church, as a whole, is engaged in.
Lucy, try viewing the resurrection less individualistically, more corporately … and dare I say politically. The gospel of the risen King and gospel of the inaugurated Kingdom are two sides of the same coin and highly interchangeable once enlightenment atomism is shrugged off. The message “of” Jesus and the message “about” Jesus really are one and the same.
Well, Matt, it appears I’m not much of a communicator at times
When I mentioned my personal context, I didn’t mean “I, myself, and me”, I meant ‘me’ in the community in which I participate and I don’t think I could get less individualistic and much more corporately or politically involved than praying in God’s new order into a very srtategic place in our nation. The creation of the new heavens and the new earth as prophesied in Isaiah and echoed in the book of Revelation; the visions of Ezekiel and examples in Daniel’s life I see outworked everyday in the gathered ecclesia at R*****n. The resurrected Jesus is proof that we have a new life to look forward to, and he makes it possible for us to have a foretaste of it as we incarnate his kingdom here until ‘the new’ is fully here. I don’t think the message of Jesus is fully interchangeable with the message about Jesus, but they are so closely connected it’s easy to think so. However, I do like the idea that “the person is the message”… the interchageability is a moot point.
I also appreciate the concept of overseers, but it seems like any term we use is loaded these days. The longer humanity goes on, the more it seems good and meaningful terms have opportunity to be trashed. Each generation will have to find its way with this stuff… The careful handing on of the ‘germ’ of the message can come with husk that needs to be discarded so that the seed can grow into a fruitful vine. Sounds a bit lame, but I hope I made myself a little clearer this post…
Lucy J
My rant that I had:
Okay let me see if I can get my head right around this.
I am looking at various things on the net and even in books etc. and there is something that continuously niggles at me.
I have seen some fantastic organisations that offer help of all different kinds BUT in their promo’s or introductions they have a few lines that are really getting under my skin!
They say: “We are here to help leaders, the pastors of churches, to grow and develop etc etc.”
Now, my question is: What makes a Pastor the leader! Is this biblical or are we just continuing a false teaching from the past?
So much of what the new breed of ‘church’ is saying is on how to rectify the wrongs of the past but then we go straight back into this whole “pastor leads the church” thing which to me, corrupts everything else.
I was discussing this with my wife and I used the example of baking a cake. If I get all the ingredients right, mix them up in separate bowls and have everything perfectly prepared BUT I have used Bicarb instead of yeast, once the cake comes out the oven, over a period of time, that simple little foundational error will affect everything! All my good intentions have come to nothing. Sure I can still eat the cake, sure it still looks pretty good – but it is not as it should be.
And here is what is irking me all the time!
As long as we stick with this incorrect premise of the pastor being the leader, no matter how good our intentions, no matter how hard we work at getting it right, no matter how perfect everything may look on the outside, that little bit of bicarb is going to spoil the end result in the long run!
Then the spill off into the rest of what we do makes the whole thing look like a joke!
I was looking at a certain establishment that has “relationships” with 7500 ‘pastors’ around the world. Once a year these guys get together so that the main guy can tell them what God is wanting.
My question is, if these guys have to come together then:
How much does it cost to put on such a production?
How much is spent on airfares, accommodation etc?
How much actually gets used elsewhere in the world?
Should any of it be used elsewhere in the world, taking into account different cultures etc?
If ‘Leader B’ needs ‘Leader A’ to tell him what God is saying, should ‘Leader B’ be in leadership in the first place – like is God not capable of leading the Leaders He has chosen?
From my side I think that they should rather:
Take all that travelling and accommodation money and tell these ‘leaders’ to take a week off on their own and seek God for themselves and then go out and feed someone with the money saved!
Look, I get the bit about getting encouragement and training from others. But, this training and following anothers example should be for guide lines. In other words, if you are called to be a Leader, then take what someone has done, read through it and then ask God how He wants you to adapt or use that to suit your environment, if He wants you to use it at all!
If you are merely imitating someone else then are you called as a Leader or as a Parrot?
My take on the Gospel is quite simple:
Jesus tells us:
You have problem – sin.
I am the solution!
I restore your relationship with God.
The Father and I will come into your life and you into ours.
We will live Our lives out through you.
The Holy Spirit will lead, teach and guide you.
Lets go do some of the stuff I did when I was on earth.
That’s it, in a nutshell!
Now let’s move on in!
When did the first public Bibles come out? Up until then what did those believers do?
Now that we all have access to a Bible, suddenly we think it necessary to dissect every word, every phrase etc. etc. since when did God call us all to be Bible Scholars?
When did God say “The only time you can go do anything worthwhile is when you get your knowledge up to a certain level?”
Really guys!
Pops… if you hang around here for a while you’ll see that decentralisation from the solo “pastor/leader” to apostolic team ministry that empowers ALL believers in mission is precisely what Alan is advocating. He is not pitching his teaching primarily to official “pastors”, but to anyone who hears Christ’s call to mission.
What is being discussed here has profound implications for organisation of Christ’s church… it calls us to question many of the assumptions we have acquired (in my case as a church kid, from birth). Therefore a lengthy dialogue with plenty of “digestion time” is required I think, for it is “paradigm shifting” conversation.
If that piques your interest, do hang around, read and digest… or better yet, get your hands on Alan’s book as well!
Matt… I agree about the “organisational narcissism” being the problem… not organising or institutions per se. Forge is an educational institution (albeit a young one), that has to work in with other educational institutions to achieve its purpose. By being an institution, it is able to achieve things it could not achieve by being an informal collection of people (and even an informal collection of people require organisation to achieve particular purposes).
I do sometimes get concerned when the emerging conversation starts to sound “anti- institutional”… because I think this polarises unnecessarily… precisely when a cooperative relationship between denominations and the emerging missional movement might be of enormous benefit to both… the missional conversation might trigger novel forms of mission and church community resourced by denominations, and emerging missional groups might benefit from mentoring and appropriately crafted theological education from existing church and Christian organisations. (Hey, I’m an incurable optimist.)
As I mentioned earlier last week, I was really encouraged by the recent “Fresh Expressions” consulation. If a truly old state church like the Church of England is willing to experiment with new forms of mission and novel shapes of church, then I see hope for redemptive change in other denominations too.
The kind of “organic movements” Alan describes are obviously the best way to reach all… but I do think we are in a religious “mixed economy” and cooperation of the whole body of Christ in getting the mission done is the ideal.
Man, now I’m ranting… and constructing excessively long sentences! Time to go back to packing boxes. (Getting the floorboards polished at home on Monday… uggh)
Lucy said,
“I do sometimes get concerned when the emerging conversation starts to sound “anti- institutional”… because I think this polarises unnecessarily”
Yes that’s precisely where I am coming from. While I affirm the necessity of prophetic critiquing the establishment, I try to avoid “unnecessary” polarizations and am concerned that “institutional” language can sometimes fall into that category, depending on how people interpret the word. I am conscious that more mainstream people are listening in on me these days and wish to avoid sounding like a complete anarchist, stone thrower, etc. Hense the caution.
Actually, you are quoting Janet, there, Matt. But I am flattered that you ascribed her erudite thoughts to me!
I have to admit that I sound like a bit of an institution slammer at times, but I try to differentiate between “helpful structure” and “stultifying system”. There are scenarios which are an complex mixture of both.
Lucy J
Well, I am flattered you describe my thoughts as erudite… especially when today I had embarassing mental blocks over a) the name of the principal of my child’s school and b) my best friend’s husband’s name. (sigh).
I think the TFG conversation is an important one… and I’d hate to think unnecessary conflict was created, or dismissial of this conversation as emerging from reactionary “anti establishment immaturity”. This is sometimes an accusation pointed at the emerging church… sometimes fairly and sometimes not.
Erudite sounds like a precious gemstone, doesn’t it? My theory is that such mental blocks are the brain’s way of telling ‘learned’ people that the mental filing system is temporarily unavailable due to an overhaul to make room for all the latest information and revelation pouring in. That concept gives me comfort when I find myself in similar embarrassing situations
Back to the thread: When my husband and I realised we we had arrived at a time and place in our lives when we felt totally frustrated at being underutilised and unable to find a local church scene in which we could flourish, we unexpectedly found that we were crossing paths with mature Christians who were having the same kind of experience. After about 3 years of this, we decided to gather together a few of the folks and so the “The New Space” (TNS)was born… a little missional community. We discovered we were part of an international movement of the Holy Spirit exploring missional/ecclesial authenticity but have been accused of being reactionary and anti-establishment by various people. We made space for God because God first made space for us, as it seemed that people organised in a more traditional church context were not making room for us at all, or only interested in using what we could do, not we actually are. I feel that our journey in TNS is more of a response than a reaction and critics need to discern and differentiate the difference.
Journeying in TNS seems to be an exercise of choreographing as we go… walking in-step with the Spirit and discovering the significance and magnificence of the pattern when we look back over the time we have been on the journey. I think that, just as master-artists are the best improvisers because they have line upon line, precept upon precept, practised upon practice, learned the foundational necessities of their respective artforms (music, dance, painting poetry etc), truly ‘Mastered’ Christians are the best missional improvisers of new ways to meet the demands of present and future missional opportunity! We don’t see enough of that in stultified systemic church situations. So yes, I do react to that. But, it is quite different from an immature tantrum. Rather, I am trying to respond in a mature way to what God requires of us in the invitation to partner with him in making all things new… funnily enough, that is often in ancient ways of the faith that have been obscured over time. That ancient-future theme that seems to be reverberating through many Christian theological conversations at the present time!
Thanks, Janet… your thoughts inspired me to dig deeper for some more treasure… lots of precious gemstones. Incidentally, I recently happily discovered the meanings attributed to some gemstones that have been my favourites for years… ONYX, groundedness, and SAPPHIRE, mental clarity, joyful devotion to God
Lucy J
Lucy, yours is a story of what I believe is a genuine move of God’s Spirit in the West… institutional church exiles who discover a path of faithful discipleship in much more “organic” expressions of “ecclesia”.
Mixed in with this move of God are some less mature people (not that there’s anything wrong with that!) who spout of about how dreadful the church is in a less than loving manner… it’s understandable but unfortunate… because those in the institutional church can also make the (less than mature) assumption that the emerging church is full of reactionary hot heads (ie it doesn’t need to be taken seriously.) This is a shame… when I think both “sides” (to use an unfortunate term) of Christ’s body have gifts for one another.
Lucy, to pick up on your digression I actually worked out a way of sharing the gospel using gemstones some years back. Community of Hope in Melbourne came had a way of doing it too. Interesting meanings in some of them. Try looking up the legends behind the bloodstone / heliotrope for instance.
And thanks for sharing more of your story.
Thanx for the info on the stones, Janet. One of the things I’m going to investigate is about the gemstones described in the New Jerusalem and the gemstones on the Levitical priesthood garments etc. I’m sure it will be a fascinating find. I think I can bring this digression back to the track… I think the outworking of the APEST pattern ‘equips the saints’ who are the church that Jesus is building. They are equipped to be the people of God who can live, love, and serve, following Jesus’ example of ministry (which he declared in Luke 4
based on Isaiah passages). The incarnational missional impulse is grounded, directed, confirmed, nurtured and explored etc through the APEST matrix. That makes me think that, in a way, we are being fashioned into The New Jerusalem, living stones of a temple where God is worshipped in spirit and in truth; a sacred space where people who meet us can be comforted, healed, delivered, set free (whatever) to be who they are destined to be, and somehow in the midst of that the sea, the river, the tree images (ecological components of creation) become new, too. It’s now and not yet… some other bloggers have further ideas?
Lucy J
Thanks but… that was Matt!!!!
Anyone know anything about the gemstones in Revelation’s new Jerusalem? (seeing it’s such a symbolic book all round!)
This is getting WAAAY off the topic… but it’s fun!
Janet, I get what Alan is saying - I was just ranting in agreement!
By the way, this APEST stuff has been around quite a while. Don’t know if you are aware of New Covenant Ministries? They have been into the Team of leaders for quite a number of years now.
Lots of love!
Pops
Pops, yes I am aware of them. And its beena round since the NT….or should have been.
A
No… although thanks to google, I am now.
At a superficial look, it appears they have a non-heirachical, non-institutional, relational paradigm and I like the sound of them… although I get the impression they aren’t advocating that churches should operate the same way… ie the radical “no office, no organisational structure” approach.
SOOOO sorry Matt & Janet… obviously I’m suffering from a bit of cranial overload… but at least I’m having fun !
I think Matt is erudite, too, by the way.
I haven’t got much to contribute to the thread right now, but I’d like to invite anybody in Sydney down to Customs House, Alfred Street Circular Quay, this Saturday 19th July for PROJECT DANCE Sydney 08 - a FREE dance concert featuring Christian creative movers from around the world and around Australia and around Sydney. First up at 10.00am we’ll have an Christian Aboriginal Welcome and you don’t wanna miss me dancing The Lord’s Prayer with a couple of little ‘gems’, Aboriginal girls, who are as keen as a mustard seed to do something for Jesus! The rest of the programme will go through to 5.00pm. So if you wanna do something unstructured, going to where the people are and observe how APEST happens on the creative arts scene, please come along and maybe bring a picnic hamper, blanket and a cushion to sit on. I think it’s on pavement, not grass. Invite a World Youth Day Pilgrim to sit with you and share an Australian perspective on the faith… have a good ‘chin-wag’ about mDNA in action right in front of your eyes… Maybe you could see such an event as Evangelistic, but not A,P,S, or T… I promise to elaborate illuminatingly on that, if you come along and find me in the crowd… mobile 0438 ICDFGO. (I Don’t mind giving my phone details… it can be changed easily enough)!
Lucy J
Lucy, Can’t promise anything but I’ll see if we’re free for Saturday. Mind swapping mobile contacts? If we do come it still probably wont be for long as I’m not sure how long it will keep our two active young-uns engaged.
As for gemstones, yes, I am just hinting about some of what Ive looked into and am happy to discuss more. You’ve prompted me to post on it. It will launch tomorrow evening.
Wow, Matt, that would be cool,if you and your little fam could make it on Saturday some time… Andrew at this stage is planning to come, too. I sent an email to your “non-Telstra Yes” email address. If you got it you could reply that way with your mobile number if you don’t want to post it here? It’s gonna be a big day… and remember, because it’s World Youth Day there are lots of road closures and diversions, so we’ll be using the public transport system. Customs House is close the Circular Quay railway station on the city loop.
I look forward to your post on the gemstones… I’ve happily googled the topic from time to time!
Lucy J
Email didn’t seem to come through, just checking it is matthew DOT stone AT optusnet.com.au.