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22 Responses to “worshipping an idea of God?”

1. Wes Woodell on October 15th, 2008 2:17 pm

   Good thoughts. I’m convinced many who claim to be followers of Jesus are simply following an idea of Him instead of actually following Him.

   Perhaps this is why Christ taught He’ll say, “Away from me - I never knew you” to a lot of souls.

   -Wes

2. mark on October 15th, 2008 9:41 pm

   Concepts seem to have a knack of limiting long-term growth as they grow more rigid with time. We are so often far too hesitant (or scared?) to reevaluate our own concepts. (Yet, we are very quick to critique another’s concepts.) Perhaps this is part of why the church in the west is in so much trouble. The concepts of “church” have been idolized, instead of living in wonder at where God wants to lead us all.

   How do you apply this? How do you avoid idolizing concepts and maintain child-like awe before God?

3. Isaiah on October 15th, 2008 10:03 pm

   “He is the great iconoclast”. Love it.

4. Scott Couchenour on October 15th, 2008 11:15 pm

   Brennan Manning, in his book “The Signature of Jesus”, quotes someone as saying (I don’t have the book in front of me so it won’t be word for word) “Eeverthing we know about Jesus we need to throw away every 5 years and re-learn”.

   This keeps us from idolizing our concept of Jesus as well as thinking we have Jesus all figured out.

5. Tom Asbury on October 15th, 2008 11:55 pm

   Good thoughts,
   could the same be said about the church? Many reject the church, but in actuality it is the idea of it that they are rejecting. They reject this idea of church that we as christians have presented to them as being the real and true church and not necessarily what the church was intended to be.

   Tom
   http://www.my-center.net

6. Bill Faris on October 16th, 2008 2:17 am

   Scott, my brother:

   I love Brennan Manning, have read a number of his books and heard him speak on several occassions. But, wherever that quote came from, it is just… stupid (sorry!)

   Do I really need to throw away EVERYTHING I know about Jesus every five years? Everything? The doctrine of His virgin birth? My fierce conviction (I’m counting on this) that He died in my place? His bodily resurrection? Do I really need to “relearn” all of that? Whatever point about keeping it real with Jesus was trying to be made by the author of that quote is, for me, obscured by the overstatement.

   I get it that worshipping our knowledge of God is both limiting and idolatrous. But where I’m struggling is how the alternative is being framed. But, then again, I’ll be straight up enough to tell you I’m coming from an a particular flow of Christian experience and I’m trying to protect something that I believe matters. So here’s the deal…

   I love to see God “show up” and blow our minds. I pray for it. I have a lifetime of experience in Pentecostal / Charismatic circles with 25 years in the Vineyard movement to date. But, sadly, I have seen incredibly goofy and even harmful stuff peddled to people in the name of throwing away everything about God so as to be open to the experience du jour (supposedly of Him) and I ache over the harmful backlash I have witnessee, and pastored people through, on the back side. Others, with different backrounds and experiences, may be contending in their comments for other things and I’m okay with that. Maybe they could share a little more about that in future posts.

   The very alive church in Jerusalem, in Acts, testified to both the miraculous transcendence of God and to regular doses of “the apostles doctrine”. There is this thing called “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints” in Scripture. There is a foundation. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge”. Maybe that’s what Alan and others are trying to awaken — first, fear the Lord, then explore the knowledge. Cool. But knowledge, doctrine, the actual intellectual construct of the law and the gospel is never, as far as I can tell, cast aside. Instead, it seems to be necessary to point us to authentic experiences of the divine.

   I guess I think of it like this:

   If I have a container and it is filled to overflowing with water, then Praise God, my cup overflows. But if I pour water into thin air because I have no container at all, what’s the point?

7. Wes Roberts on October 16th, 2008 2:27 am

   …tell us more, brother, tell us more

   …and make certain we get properly disturbed in the process

   …what other “Christian idols” do you experience these days in all your travels?

8. alan hirsch on October 16th, 2008 2:28 am

   I think Bill’s warning is a good one. My concern here is simply to question the status that we have tended to give ideas in the Western theological tradition. We are never saved by a mere Idea of God and they easily become substitutes for an encounter with him.

   The rabbis teach that the fear of God is actually the doorway to the love of God. Encountering God himself must cause us to tremble…only then is true knowledge of God maintained and ideas don’t become idolatry or ideology.

   Also, I hate gnosticism and to be honest, I think it has plagued the church in the Western theological tradition. We are not saved through knowledge and ideas, but by God.

9. Cameron on October 16th, 2008 2:45 am

   Hey, everyone–new to the discussion here by way of Bill’s Facebook status (thanks, Bill).

   I appreciate your point, Alan, and I’d like to add another thought to see what you guys think.

   How should our understanding of God as the ultimate, transcendent reality of all existence–not merely as an idea, but as the One in Whom “we live and move and have our being”–effect the way we go about “doing church”, our worship? How do we measure this?

   It seems to me that God-as-idea fuels a lot of our innovations and reformations in the evangelical world. Somehow we affirm His very real presence with us in our daily lives, but so often, when it comes to deciding matters of orthopraxis, we relegate Him to the idea world once again–picking and choosing when to submit to Him as Ultimate Reality, and when to follow our own ideas.

   Can anybody relate to this observation? Any thoughts?

10. Scott Couchenour on October 16th, 2008 4:06 am

    Bill - I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I certainly don’t want to start worshipping a “Jesus du jour”.

    The context of Manning’s quote however (I believe) is not to throw out everything, but to realize that God is so much more than we could ever imagine. The minute we start truly understanding Him (or think we understand Him) we are in danger of idolizing OUR UNDERSTANDING of Him, rather than Jesus Himself.

11. Alan Hirsch on October 16th, 2008 6:15 am

    Actually Scott, the approach that Manning is suggesting has a name–its called the Via Negativa (the Negative Way). It means that in order to know God we have to actually let go of what we think we believe that keeps us from ‘knowing’ him and go the way of unknowing. The best practice of this approach to knowledge of God is when it is done as one of the Ways of knowing God and not the only way.

    Cameron, welcome to the discussion. But as we normally look at precisely your question in most of the pots, I won’t directly answer you here. but stick around. Others might wish to give it a go through.

12. Scott Couchenour on October 16th, 2008 6:34 am

    Alan - Beautiful. Thanks for the clarification.

13. Cameron on October 16th, 2008 7:30 am

    “But as we normally look at precisely your question in most of the pots, I won’t directly answer you here.”

    Ah, well. No worries.

14. Alan Hirsch on October 16th, 2008 9:17 am

    Haha Cam. I meant posts of course. Seriously, we deal with this all the time. Its alright to raise it whenever you want. that’s what TFW is all about–missional ecclesiology. Stick around and you’ll see.

15. Dan Lowe on October 16th, 2008 2:23 pm

    Hello everyone,

    Mark - I love the way in which you asked the question you asked, “How do you avoid idolizing concepts and maintain child-like awe before God?” One of the ways that I’ve approached this, or the way has actually approached me, is through a deconstruction of my worldview. I think it’s fair to say that the way in which we think about God is informed by the way in which we see the world. My wife and her family are Native North Americans; our “uncles” are also Native North Americans (and other uncles and aunties from various indigenous people groups around the world), and they are all involved in contextualization for their people. Being involved with this and watching and learning and experiencing how they see and think about God has helped to re-inform the way in which I perceive God. My wife calls it a decolonization of the mind. I don’t know if this helps, but what keeps me in awe of God and continues to deconstruct my views of God, is the way in which other cultures experience God. It’s also raised a million questions regarding the Western church, power, the way in which we are, and the way in which we do, church.

    Bill, I’m not sure if this relates to your question, so forgive me if it doesn’t, but what if the water isn’t meant to be contained at all? What if the water is simply meant to be soaked into the ground, watering that which it flows on/into? (if this irrelevant, just disregard it, but it’s the thought that came to mind after reading your post).

16. Void on October 16th, 2008 4:37 pm

    Hi

    I don’t know why, but I luv this particular topic.

    I am a very rational person. But this whole God-thing seems totally alien to me. I cannot think the way some people talk about God like He is their buddy or pall or somethin. Like: ‘Then God told me this and God told me that…”

    I think I was a christian a long time a go and then lost it somehow. It seems everyone talking about God is just using their one framework, and each theological framework has it’s own vocabulary. The one group is using spirit, the others are talking a bout the kingdom, while some is using “missional” alot.

    The more I got to work among christians, the less I like the church and the picture of God. At one stage my life was really just floating, (and I don’t know if that has changed,) but then I got involved in this church culture. I’m so glad I’m out of it. Believing in God just to jump into heaven really feels like selling cookies to small children and tell them it is headache pills. Now that I stopped doing the christian stuff, it doesn’t feel any different inside me like when I went to the cell group meetings. The numb feeling is still there.

    How do I know there is something or someone out there? How do I know He cares/is a personal Being? How do I worship something if I don’t know how? What do I do? Do I get on my knees and say ‘n few nice thingies, or do I sing or is God a thought in my head? How would anybody know if it is me creating something, or talking to something that I fabricated, or Someone out there?

    What will happen to me if I cannot connect with it? Would I die and burn in hell, or would I still be able to see my budhist buddies?

    You guys seem wise. Maybe someone can help me here.

17. Mick on October 16th, 2008 11:58 pm

    I think all these quotes are very relevant to a self proclaimed new generation of sincere thinkers who want to go about trying to “do church”, “be church”, “be missional”, “be incarnational”, etc. but still in such a way of thinking that if we can just grasp and articulate these new/old ideas, we can bring them into reality - myself included. I think part of what Gregory would say to us today is to receive our visions and revelations on our knees rather than on whiteboards.

18. Cameron on October 17th, 2008 1:32 am

    Void (I don’t suspect that’s your name, but since I have no other name to call you by…),

    I don’t claim to be wise—far from it, in fact. But I hope that what I have to say might be helpful at least in a small way. These are merely my thoughts as a sinner, and some of what I’ve learned as I continue to work out my faith in God. It’s definitely a process.

    I think what we’re getting at here is that God is a mystery. Sure, the Scriptures have a lot to say about Him–there is much theology and other writings about Him and His life in the Church. But ultimately these things can’t encompass Him. The Scriptures, the universe, the life of the saints and the Church all point to God, but He transcends them all. Likewise, how He speaks to us is a Mystery and when anyone claims to know too much I become wary myself (this goes with what’s been said above about “Via Negativa” or as it’s known in the Eastern Christian tradition, “apophaticism”). There certainly is a place for rational thought (and very much so) within the Church. But ultimately it will never fully convince us of God’s existence. We have to experience that, and this too is a mystery. But it’s true and accessible.

    The Church has always taught that God is not somewhere else, on some second story in the sky and every so often we hear a chair scrape across the floor, and know He’s real. No, the Church teaches that God is present everywhere and filling all things. His very life and energy permeate this world. This is why we say that in Him “we live and move have our being.” He is active among us, showing mercy and kindness to all people—even the wicked (so says the Bible).

19. Cameron on October 17th, 2008 1:33 am

    (Sorry for the second comment–your site wouldn’t let me post this in its entirety).

    The Church also teaches us that Jesus Christ isn’t only a ticket out of hell, or a pass into heaven (whichever you prefer). He isn’t merely the sacrifice for our sins. He is life. Let that sink in. Jesus is life. All things are held together in Him, St. Paul teaches. The world and all its inhabitants are sustained in existence—are given life—because God wills it and for no other reason. For if Jesus is life (I know I’m getting redundant here, but bear with me) then anything apart from Him is death. If Jesus is true existence, then turning away from Him is to turn toward the non-existence whence we came. In this sense, we come to understand that Paradise—more importantly than a location—is Jesus Christ Himself, and our living in His presence no longer hindered by the disease of sin. And His presence, as St. John tells us, is love. So, then, likewise, hell is the result of rejecting Christ and choosing instead an existence apart from Him. It is to reject life and choose death and decay. Hell is to live in such a state that one is unable to receive God’s life-giving love, never to regain God’s intended state from the beginning of humankind living in complete unity with Himself.

    Here, it’s important to say something about freewill. The Scriptures teach us that God doesn’t will that any would perish, but that all would be reconciled to Him. However, God will never force Himself upon us. He won’t make us love Him. The choice is completely ours to either choose life or to choose death. As Christians, we believe that Jesus didn’t come to make bad men good, but to make dead men live.

    As for everyone we know—our Buddhist friends, for example—it’s not our place to judge them or decide their fate. That is God’s job, no one else’s. Our job is to choose Life, and to be concerned about the state of our own souls—being healed of the sin and spiritual blindness that keeps us from fully experience God’s life and love in Jesus Christ.

    A few more thoughts about the reality of God…

    I once heard a story about an atheist who in his youth once heard a priest give a talk about Jesus. This man was only there to listen out of obligation, and became increasingly disgusted by what the priest had to say as he taught from the gospels. That night, the young man went home and determined to discover for himself the truth about Jesus by reading the Bible. As he sat down to his desk and started flipping through pages, he suddenly became aware of a presence there on the other side of the desk that he couldn’t deny. In a way that transcends mere rational thought, the young man new with finality that presence was God. How? It’s a mystery. (That’s a true story, by the way. The man’s name was Anthony Bloom, and you can read more about it in his book “Beginning to Pray,” which I highly recommend for anyone wanting to know more about experiencing the presence of God.)

    I truly believe that if your heart is open and desires to know the presence of God, He will reveal Himself to you. Perhaps not in the same way as the man in the story above, but He will just the same. Ask him with a humble and honest heart to be merciful and make Himself known. And ask Him to lead you.

    There is more to say, but I’ve gone on too long already. Alan, my apologies for taking up so many pixels.

    Blessings to you, Void. Forgive me if what I’ve said isn’t helpful.

20. Alan Hirsch on October 17th, 2008 3:23 am

    Void, actually I think you have sensed the connection between your story and what has been said here. In many ways, the Via Negativa (the Way of Negation and Unknowing) is one of the ways God brings us to Himself. This approach or perspective says that God is way beyond human knowing and therefore all attempts to frame our understandings in human terms can (and do) become impediments to the actual knowledge of God. One of the most consistent and beautiful expressions of Via Negativa spirituality is in St. John of the Cross’ famous Dark Night of The Soul. The process by which everything is stripped away and the soul is left naked before God.

    Here is where your story might well fit in. Clearly you have had faith stripped from you (in a sense) but you seem to me to be a person who remains profoundly open to God. You have not dulled the hunger in the soul. To be honest bro, this is rare in my experience and I would suggest that you should cultivate it even more. For that primal hunger will eventually lead you to God (or sadly to vanity if you go down the many alluring side-alleys and deceptions).

    Another thing you can do is add the others Ways of spiritual questing to the equation. The Postive Way (the search for active knowledge and understanding) is also neccesary and here I would recommend you read C.S. Lewis as a great example of a spiritual adventurer (Surprised by Joy, Pilgrims Regress, Mere Christianity, etc.) . The Via Creativa is the way of creation…being creative and finding God in Creation gives one insights into the nature and being of God. Add to this the Via Transformata (the way of activism–actually getting involved in transforming the world). you can meet God there because that is what God is doing.

    In doing all these you will see God in many different Ways.

    Hope this helps in some way.

21. Roger Saner on October 26th, 2008 8:01 am

    I’ve developed some thoughts on this at FutureChurch.co.za - too long to post here! Thanks for the quotes, Alan

22. Andrew on October 26th, 2008 2:34 pm

    Void

    I actually found the following book very helpful when exploring questions about my own spirituality.

    It was written by a Churches of Christ minister who had become disillusioned with Christian fundamentalism over the process of many years in pastoral ministry.

    His name is Graham Chapman and the book is called Spirituality for Ministry.

    It was a text for one of my Bachelor of Theology subjects.

    It is an out of print book, but Graham has made it fully accessible for free to anyone through his website.

    I have posted the link as follows http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/gchapman/sfm/SFM00A.HTM

    I found it very helpful in understanding and exploring my own spiritual journey.

    Have given several hard copies of it away to other Christians re-exploring and questioning their own faith journeys - especially in terms of re-finding faith after being released from slavery to fundamentalisms, and prescriptive formula-based Christianity - and they found it quite thought provoking, but worthwhile.

    I also encourage you not to stop asking the hard questions about faith stuff. Its healthy to question.

    St Anselm once defined theology as “faith seeking greater understanding”. Can’t go there without asking questions.
    It is part of the spiritual growth process and authentic faith is usually derived from doing so.

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