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19 Responses to “the role of theology in faith”

1. Penney Winiarski on November 10th, 2008 11:39 pm

   One of the things I find challenging is connecting with other’s, who have a desire to increase their knowledge, not only in learning scripture, but testing our own theology. Many of the house churches I’ve known, seem to rebel against knowledge because they have had bad experiences in more structured churches. It’s like watching an emotional roller coaster of high’s and low’s. Leading to that deceptive faith which now becomes fickle.

   On the flip side, those who do have knowledge, seem to consume it, but not embody it. They live in the present with no hope for tomorrow. You almost wonder if there concept, the altar, vestments, building, were to die, God will die with it.

   I find myself caught between these 2 tensions, like trying to grow up with divorced parents. Recently I’ve been very frustrated and it was the 2 posts Alan highlighted that really had me stop and think. How do we not only survive but grow in the kingdom of God?

   I thought back to when I left home at 15, what helped and what didn’t? The first thing was getting a new identity. Even though I was very cynical, the second, was to listen and become open to critism. When resources are limited what specifically did I need in terms of education and knowledge? Sometimes I got lazy, didn’t want to take suppemental or basic classes that would give me the foundation to utilize a specific course that was relevant to my position. In many ways, I find this to be the same with theology. I find myself getting lazy, not refining, returning to the basics, really studying.

   The other part was that my cynical nature, many times caused me to refuse help and I would go it alone. Seeing the abuse of authority, the disparity, made me think that to recieve help or be a part of another community, one in which I may not fully agree, would mean that I was giving approval to their deception. It forces you to judge the intent of another, even when the end result may still serve the same purpose. This is very isolating.

   I know deep within me there is a desire to root myself in a home. To feel safe, protected, and loved. Yet, I also find that when I become rooted in any community, I begin to put my trust in my knowledge of those very things. I begin to despair and become numb again.

   I have a whole life time of experience living in indifference. It scares the hell out of me. My husband is wonderful in recognizing this withdrawl. What I find is that at this very point, I need to make a choice. A choice to allow Christ to shatter this image. To return to the basics, add and sometimes relearn some very fundemental principals.

   It’s like 3 things happen.

   1)My knowledge of theology grows and I am receptive to not only seeking out, but listening, learning, and loving those very leaders I may not agree with or am cynical of.

   2)The more knowledge I’ve attained, the more I find sharing it with others, especially new believers, becomes simplistic or natural. Seeing the blossoming of those with no theological background, helps(not always)keep me from depending on what I’ve learned in #1.

   3)#2, helps to keep me in line, allowing and giving permission to new believers to also speak into my life. It’s very humbling. Especially when I think so highly of myself and am corrected by a child who is showing more reason and logic when discerning truth,than I am.

   I find all of this uproots me from being a part of any one community, and am constantly seeking alternatives that help me stay connected to my own humanity. I’m starting to think that this wave that tosses me, is what returns my focus to Christ. The fear is no longer being right or wrong, it’s about remaining faithful, even when I’m not sure where He is leading.

2. Scott Couchenour on November 11th, 2008 1:24 am

   Alan - I appreciate this post. It speaks to the need for balance in the discussion.

3. Tim C on November 11th, 2008 10:20 am

   One of the tests about our theologies per se, is to take ot to the streets. If what we are coming up with can not pass the test of empowering the person on the street, or a word of hope to the poor, it is just ivory tower b.s. This is not to minimize the descriptive, hermeneutical and ethical task of doing theology. I spent four years in the ineer city of Montgomery AL and had a thorough education about where theology and life intersect. If what we say and think does not translate into empowerment and liberation of the poor then we are off course.

4. Richard Clarke on November 12th, 2008 2:27 am

   I really like the post Alan! I have been lurking for a bit lately while I deal with some health issues, but this one brought me out of hiding.

   One of the theological pillars of the church we are planting, now 1 year old, is this: Act 1:8 says that when the Holy Spirit is in it, we will have the power to witness. This has become a powerful thought to me. If what I am doing is in line with God, I will have the power to witness to my Savior in the process. Pure learning does not accomplish this, arguing about theological differences and petty points of pithy piety does not get it. God does. He is worthy!

   Thanks for the balance.

5. Wes Woodell on November 13th, 2008 6:02 am

   “I have always been deeply suspicious of the more liberal theological approach that gives away the family treasures.”

   Me too, brother, but it’s becoming more and more trendy.

6. Paul Riggs on November 13th, 2008 12:16 pm

   In quoting Wes:

   # Wes Woodell on November 13th, 2008 6:02 am

   “I have always been deeply suspicious of the more liberal theological approach that gives away the family treasures.”

   Me too, brother, but it’s becoming more and more trendy.

   Does this fall under the idea of essential beliefs? I am coming in on this journey where it’s not that I want to give away some of the family treasures, but I have no problem with questioning them in a dialogue, I guess.

7. Wes Woodell on November 14th, 2008 1:03 am

   Paul - I work in a very pluralistic environment where most people believe all religions lead to heaven, you don’t need Jesus in your life to be right with God, etc.

   Those kinds of beliefs directly contradict core Christian doctrine … namely the types of things Jesus was always saying like this:

   John 6:45
   45b … Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

   John 8:12
   12b … I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

   John 10:9
   9a I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. …

   John 14:6
   6b … I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

   Jesus in his conversation with Pilate in the latter part of John …

   John 18:37
   37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

   —-

   Those are pretty exclusive statements. I’m not sure if this is what Allen was getting it, but when I stated I was suspicious of those who take a “more liberal theological approach that gives away the family treasures,” I was referring to those who teach any belief system/religion is cool with God.

   The Bible teaches Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, and the only path to His Father.

   No other religion cuts it.

8. Bob Roby on November 14th, 2008 2:01 am

   I think this discussion begs the question of how real God is. The Shema - the statement that God is One and that He has an identity that can be known, is all at stake in this discussion. If He is real and can be known, then He is not whatever we perceive He is, but He said “I am that I am”. He is not open to discussion. The variable is not His identity, but our ability to perceive it. This is why I believe Jesus added the phrase “recovery of sight to the blind” to the Isaiah 61 passage when He read it in the synagogue (Luke 4:18). The unity of the Body of Christ (”big C” church) is based on a universal deference to the authority of a real, identifiable God.

   I agree with the idea that every contextual expression of the gospel has to walk out its own theology, but the reason for this has to do with unique journey of the culture, not a difference in the identity of God. I think this needs to be understood to avoid the slip into relativity as to the identity of the true living God.

9. becky on November 14th, 2008 2:05 am

   I am not intelligent enough to comment here and yet this makes sense..makes sense and is a place to hold onto when I get even more confused….

10. Janet on November 14th, 2008 3:46 pm

    Although I agree on one level, I’ll confess I’m finding myself more interested in the question of “heart orientation”. I’m involved with a group of women who are interested in Christ but maybe not “over the line” in terms of Christian confession. Having said that… I think of one in particular who prays, who sees changes in her life, who forgives, who cares… I think sometimes one can be “converted in the heart” before there’s the “right words”. All of them are reading the gospel of Mark for “homework”… something tells me their heart direction is right, even though none of them would call themselves Christians in “our” terms.

    I agree that Jesus is the way… but the scribes and Pharisees knew the law to the letter, and somehow didn’t have the right heart orientation.

11. Daniel Lowe on November 16th, 2008 8:11 am

    Janet,

    Wow, love your words! Something that comes to mind, maybe some encouragement to piggy back your post, is the circumcision of the heart that Jeremiah speaks of and that Paul builds on in some of his letters. Great thoughts here! It makes me wonder to what degree the words will eventually come as the Spirit continues his work in the lives of the women with whom you are in relationship! Keep going!

    Peace.
    Dan

12. Janet on November 16th, 2008 12:53 pm

    I’d love to see the right words come of course… but I do think when Jesus noted “the tax collectors and sinners are entering the kingdom of heaven ahead of you!” he was looking at the heart, not at perfect theology or even perfect living.

    I think context is so important in these discussions…

    I would agree that organisations… churches, denominations, mission organisations should “draw some lines in the sand” around statements of faith. This is what we believe…

    But I also think the practice carries dangers with it that we need to be conscious about. Ideology is so often dehumanising… even theology can be used to create enemies where really, energy would be better spent in respectful cooperation in service and mission. I don’t think it helps the witness of the church one little bit when Christians start devouring one another (so to speak) on theological differences of opinion… there’s some pretty nasty “web” conversations on theology out there for all the world to see. Sad, really.

    Yes, there’s a place for “lines”… but they should be drawn more around absolute core issues (Jesus Christ as Lord) than on issues around which Christians have legitimate differences of opinion… and they should always be drawn with grace and respect… honoring the dignity of those who fall “outside the lines”.

    I’m also wondering (if you’ll forgive me for rambling) that if Jesus really died for the sin of the the whole world (I John 2:2) whether the grace of Christ covers with mercy those who have the right heart, even if not always the right words. I certainly hope that for children who die, and for the intellectually disabled, and I hope this too for people who have never had a chance to understand the gospel but have a heart orientation toward truth.

    I say this because I have a twinge of discomfort around those who are supremely confident about those who are going to hell (anyone who doesn’t believe what I do) and those who are not (anyone who believes what I do):

    Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    I don’t think a bit of humility about whether we’re in or out… whether others are in or out… goes astray. Judgment in the end is God’s business… we trust in His justice and his mercy, while keeping our focus on Christ.

    The idea that goes around “all religions are the same” is easy to undermine upon the most superficial examination of different religions… ask a devout Muslim or Jew if their religion is the same as Christianity and you’ll get a blunt response. I think the appropriate missional response is (with gentleness and respect) pointing others to Jesus… to examine his claims and his teaching and his character. Our interest (I hope) is more about Jesus and less about religion per se.

    OK… rambled enough…

13. Janet on November 17th, 2008 11:09 am

    “I say this because I have a twinge of discomfort around those who are supremely confident about those who are going to hell (anyone who doesn’t believe what I do) and those who are not (anyone who believes what I do)”

    Actually, I thought I’d better clarify this, having thought about it some more…

    I run into people who are very conscious of those bound for hell… they have the gift of evangelism. They also have a heart filled with compassion and a passion for sharing Jesus. They have the aroma of Christ about them.

    I run into beautiful saints who are quietly confident of their salvation, because “The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) They have the sweet fragrance of the fruit of the Spirit.

    But I sometimes encounter people with a different “aroma” altogether, and it smells like the spirit of the Pharisee. It utterly lacks humility… it is superior, argumentative, more interested in being “right” than being righteous, condescending, etc.

    It is where a catch a whiff of the spirit of Phariseeism that I get a twinge of discomfort… and this is always a temptation for good religious people. The flesh would much rather be superior than be humble.

    It’s a “vibe”, thus it’s hard to write about… but there’s enough parables of Jesus directed at the self-righteous to make me think we’re all quite capable of falling into this particular spiritual trap.

14. Matt Stone on November 17th, 2008 3:46 pm

    It is quite amusing (and sometimes depressing) to watch post-evangelicals take to negative theology like kids in a candy story, and, with the hindsight of a few months reading, begin making bold pronouncements about the unsoundness of dogmatic approaches to faith. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. A bit more reading would reveal many so-called apophatic theologians not only affirmed dogma, but were also keen apologists who happily used rational arguments where the situation required it. They went beyond positive theology and negative theology to embrace both and more. We cannot ‘capture’ God in theological statements, but nevertheless, the God we worship is one who has revealed himself. God is an enigma, but God is not unknown.

    I think the problem, at least in part, is that too many people have a one dimensional understanding of good and evil, truth and error, right and wrong. They see that if something is bad, they must ran as far as they can in the opposite direction. But this is too simplistic. Often the opposite of one error is an equal and opposite error, not truth. The scriptures, on the other hand, tell us not to stray to the left or the right.

15. Penney Winiarski on November 17th, 2008 10:58 pm

    Matt & Janet,
    I really enjoyed your posts. Especially Janet in regards to those being conscious of those bound for hell. It’s a real testing for me sometimes to work with some of the pastors I do. One especially used this mentality when I was looking for hope many years ago. Life was a mess and my dad had just committed suicide. In evangelizing this pastor used theology as a stumbling block and I ran. I’ve really had no confidence in where my father was at in his faith. Yet, I know that nobody could have loved my father more than Jesus, that gives me comfort that He is in the hands of a Just God.

    Yet, that same comfort must be used for the pastor that continues to frustrate me with his theology. I’ve gleaned much from this pastor, enjoying his discipline, but also aware that I too am in the same dilema. My own ideas or concepts must consitantly shattered.

16. Ed Magee on November 18th, 2008 10:20 pm

    Janet i agree with so many of your well worded thoughts.

    I read of a Jesus who was always clear about God, he made bold statements that could not really be dismissed. They required a response and he sayd “this stuff is hard and a lot of people can not take it”. Are people looking for a church that lowers values to get people in, or are they looking for a church that weclomes them mess and all but has clear values that it will not compramise on?

    Now the question then surely becomes what are these values that we can not negate? I do not even attempt to have the answers to that but i would have thought the words of jesus would be a good starting point.

    So we have clear theology, but surely we talk about it with humility and always welcoming, loving, and our words are not just words they are matched by a lifestyle that lives out this theology.

    I would never tell anyone they are going to hell, [am i the judge?] but i will attempt to show them God who loves them, because that is what Jesus always does, i struggle with the fact that i do not see the church doing that, i do not see the love, i see the rules and theology, but not the love. Are they only bad when they are on their own? loveless dogma, or dogmaless life.

    So the word religion is always seen as bad to christians, but do people outside see it as bad or do they see church as the bad word because what we have made church?

17. Janet on November 21st, 2008 7:24 am

    “Are people looking for a church that lowers values to get people in, or are they looking for a church that weclomes them mess and all but has clear values that it will not compramise on?”

    Ed, your comments make me think of another area where we “draw lines”… that is, lines not only around doctrine but around behaviour.

    I sometimes liken modes of church to lollies (sweets? candy?… I have to remember this is a cross-cultural blog!) These are tentative thoughts presented for the feedback of the TFW community.

    Some “church” communities… often more on the liberal side… are like marshmallow. Everyone’s very welcome… God is love… we’ll just ignore all the hard sayings of Jesus because we’re accepted anyway. All softness, no toughness anywhere.

    Others are like really hard toffee. Sometimes burnt, bitter toffee. Yes, there’s hardness and high standards… but these can be legalistic, judgmental, brittle communities. Failure is hidden because reputation is critical. They follow a Law more than a wonderful Person.

    Others are like Jaffas… hard on the outside and soft in the middle. These are Christian clubs… very cliquey, hard to break into, people who are a bit different are frozen out. But once you’re “in”, you’re “in” more because you fit in with the group norms than because you are a “sold-out” disciple of Jesus.

    I think the biblical idea is closer to a scorched almond… soft around the edges (just as Jesus seemed to draw the tax collectors and sinners like moths to a light with his love and acceptance). But the requirements of the leadership are really high… there’s tough expectations to follow the hard call of Jesus and exhibit some spiritual maturity for those closer to the centre (think the requirements of overseers in Titus and Timothy). This is not driven by status and is not done in a legalistic way… more in the understanding that the church is called to submit to Christ and its health is damaged if its leaders are not sincere followers.

    Penney… *sigh*… seems to be a sympton of those who regard the bible as a rule book, not a revelation of a Person who invites us into a relationship of love and grace.

    “Enjoying his discipline”. Hmm. Whatever happened to: 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” (Matthew 6) I know spiritual disciplines are important for growth, but I’d rather be known as a very imperfect person who seeks to follow a wonderful Saviour, than be someone known for my marvellous discipline. This still smacks of legalism, performance-based faith (and potentially, spiritual pride) to me. Still… I’ll add the disclaimer I don’t want to judge an individual by a throwaway line because he could be a fabulous person attempting to keep his wonderful life of discipline hidden… and to keep the focus on Jesus not himself… but his secret leaks out anyway! (Our character is like that… who we really are gets out there somehow!)

18. Ed Magee on November 22nd, 2008 1:15 am

    thanks Janet, intersting and thought provoking

    Maybe my language sounded behaviourist, i really hope not. I think God is way more interested in people than behaving in a certain way. Infact i was wondering the other day why we do not have smoking areas for church buildings like those pubs have [for any non brits people are not allowed to smoke indoors anymore so some bars have a tarpualined area with tv's and heaters outside].

    But what i was trying to say is that for those of us who call ourselves disciples of Jesus it is about the attitude of our heart and if we desire God, and massively agree that leaders have the hardest call by far to live it out even further.

19. Kay on November 27th, 2008 12:44 am

    I have always been deeply suspicious of the more liberal theological approach that gives away the family treasures. However limited our capacity to ‘capture’ God in theologial statements, the oppostite error is doubly as dangerous.

    I spent quite a while on the left side of center (after having spent years on the far right), and I can say that they are two sides of the same coin: narrow, literalistic, factual, ‘historical.’ I think both miss the point.

    Thanks for a wonderful discussion.

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