what would i do with an established church?
I was asked this question recently in an interview
“If you were asked to steer a conventional, western church on a missional path and were given the freedom to utilize or reallocate all funds and resources in the best way you felt this could be accomplished, how and what would you do?
You have three staff members and a lien-free building. And the building is located in a neighborhood where few members actually live.”
And here is my answer…
The issue of change and transition into missional forms of church is fraught with many complex problems. But again, at the heart of the problem is our ‘idea of church’—the conception we have of what it means to be God’s people as a community. Part of the problem is that we have so associated our idea of church with the institutional forms of it (including programs, services, professionalization of ministry, theologies, denominational templates, etc.) that we need to at least be given the chance to experience each other as Jesus’ church divorced from the predominance of the institution of the church.
Having said this, I do believe the building can present a real problem—for one, it staticizes our idea of church. I would certainly have the building in my sights. But that would be just one thing—the heart of my strategy would be to try to communicate a more primal and organic idea of church and mission because I think that is more who we truly are meant to be. You no doubt know that wonderful quote from Antoine de Saint Extupery “If you want to build a ship, don’t summon people to buy wood, prepare tools, distribute jobs, and organize the work, rather teach people the yearning for the wide, boundless ocean.” The unfolding of Christianity as the means by which people are re-connected to God has nothing to do with the institutionalized idea of church in the first instance. We need to recover our most basic, and dangerous, forms of church—that of an apostolic movement. It’s the story of the church and her mission that I outline in The Forgotten Ways. I would tell and retell of that story and then lets see what happens!
But here’s my general advice to people in this situation (note the 6 P’s you 3-B Baptists out there 
)
- You need to get the right paradigm. (Clearly getting our ‘idea/conception’ of church right before we start is critical–as per comments above)
- You need to be prayerful (It’s God’s work and God’s church, prayer is vital. Especially corporate prayer around these issues: we must come before the Lord of the Church)
- You need to be patient (it ain’t going to happen overnight, but if you stick in there, and be consistent in your activism, it will/might eventually happen.)
- You need to be very practical (Do something, don’t shout your mouth off. The best critique of the bad is the practice of the better)
- You need to have some power (in any institution, you had better have some form of social power to change things. Otherwise, frustration will become your food and cynicism will follow)
- You need to have a darn good plan (don’t just be a change agent, be a change manager. For large and complex organizations, this might take years. So buckle in.)
Anyone else suggest some other things we could do?
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Hi Al,
I spoke to a friend in Adelaide recently, who was called a year or so ago to lead an older established church - which you may know. It had a minimal and aging congregation and a building in a neighbourhood where most of them did not live. They’ve agreed to sell the building and start on a great adventure, to see how their faith applied can change the face of the community where they live…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Hi Al and CS… love all your input.
Based on the future directions stuff C of C’s are doing…
Begin “missional experiments” running alongside the Sunday church focus. (the word is experiment is deliberate… most congregations are jaded by “the new grand strategic plan” for the church everyone is supposed to be railroaded into). Plant some ideas, pray, see what experiments people are led to start… like outreach focused house churches, community service projects, supporting an overseas community…
Through the experiences people have, they learn a new imagination of church… through stories that emerge, those who have a “wait and see” approach might buy into a new vision and start doing something themselves.
That is, of course, all very well in theory. In practice I’d be scared stiff! (which is probably a good thing… it leads one to prayer like nothing else!)
Hello, Janet…how surprising to find you blogging at the same time as me!
Well…I have lots to say, and nothing to say…since I’m moving strategically into the “quit talking/planning and get going” stage. I’ve hashed and rehashed…and waited and prayed and waited…and I believe I’ve heard the “go” for the next stage: action.
But do stay tuned…I will be back with you to share the bumps and bruises as well as the praises.
I’m with you on the 6-Ps, Alan…this post was well timed for me…a little pumping is great before I jump off the cliff!
This is a great post Al. And this is the reality that most of us face when working with established churches/Christians.
You’ve highlighted prayer as an important factor which is not something I’ve experienced a lot of talk about in the Forge stuff I’ve been involved with. But it really is the most important factor, as you say, “it’s God’s work and God’s church.”
Good post
Can I add a couple more p’s?
People skills at the end of the day you are trying to get the Queen Mary to turn on its axis, and there are a lot of crew members who would prefer it kept going the way it is.
Pluck If you cannot handle the fact that engaging in this is likely to get you fired, or half the congregation to leave, and thus leave you with half the resources you thought you had, then go do something else.
Now that we are on a roll, how about another P
POLITICAL WILL - it takes a strong decision laced with long term resolve to go against the flow of congregation and history. Steady on the bridge!
P is also for
Perseverance - persisting through troubled times
Perspecuity - being clear on where we’re heading
Prevenience - both in terms of leadership that goes before and in terms of preferring on another
Perspiration…
Ok so I could Prattle on, or open the encyclopaedia or dictionary to P…
Praying perfect providence pours provision prior to promoting practiced and prepared plans… propelling you on!!
OK OK we have no exhausted the P’s. Onto C’s
Nah, onto resolving the world’s problems.
Praise God!
All I’ve heard recently is that trying to turn round an established congregation is more trouble than its worth. The comments seem to be along the lines of everyone I’ve known has been broken by the experience, so you will be too.
So thanks Alan for an answer that didn’t go down that line as well!
A bit tongue in cheek ( I know not like me,
)
Almost any involvement in church is more trouble than it’s worth… which is why we don’t get involved just on the basis that it’s worth it. We engage, as a consequence of becoming the people that God surrendered His Son to enable us to become. Then when we get the focus off our own selfish wants, identified by whether we think it’s worth it or not, we realise that God is at work in the lives around us and we are empowered to see that it’s all worth it… if you get my point!!
Slainte
CS - I wonder if that’s what Jesus thought as he was hanging on the cross - this really might be more trouble than it’s worth.
Yeah Andrew,
I wonder if that thought crossed His mind on a number of occasions, particularly as He sweated drops like blood in the Garden before the torture and crucifixion, and at seveal points in the process.
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Conflict. The ability to transform conflict is crucial when working for change, if we can’t transform conflict we can’t make changes.
I think a ceiling is put on our ability to faciliate change by our level of confidence and experience in transforming conflict. Think here of the importance of shared stories of how we had X conflict and managed to find transformational outcomes and now we … etc. No stories, or worse still, stories of conflicts that end badly, make everyone too anxious to initiate or respond to change.
And I’m convinced if we make changes that leave a wake of wounded behind us, we are in big trouble, for that stuff comes home to roost in alienations that last for decades, and mistrust that eats into the morale and energy levels of a congregation. ‘This time the leaders left the old people behind, next time it will be our turn to be jettisoned.’
On power: hmmm. The net gives every one of us surely the power to make change by being effective cultural agents in our churches. Even the least of us can potentially have power, whether power to walk away and go elsewhere, or power of articulation, or power to simply go out and pioneer, by the grace of God to create something different alongside what already exists.
I’m one who thinks its selfish to use an established gathering for any experiment. For good or not, a lot of people invest much into institutions, sometimes over generations. To come in and radically change the direction and substance of any gathering without overwhelming and informed support doesn’t reflect respect or love optimally for me.
Whereas, taking a risk, starting off from scratch, using your own finances . . .
Im being purposely provocative, but like bad street preachers, radical experimentation in established churches can lead people to ‘experimentation fatigue’.
The thing about it all, performing a cost-benefit analysis of Jesus’ ministry was that at the cost of his life, salvation would be brought to many.
Not your typical business model, but it is the one that Jesus uses and calls us to as well. I wonder if, like Jesus entering into Israel to die for her, we aren’t called to the same frustrating, death-bringing thing.
New churches and church planting are still important, but I’m glad that this thread addresses the importance of internal transformation as well.
Hi
I think you’ve made a really good point and it is to do with forcing change rather than a group deciding together to make a change. I would imagine the difficulty is that our denominations and their congregations, apart from the Quakers and those with Anabaptist roots, are orientated around leaders making the decisions for the congregation. That doesn’t mean the leaders don’t or shouldn’t listen, but the decision making is largely out of the hands of the congregation. You then end up with leaders inevitably experimenting as they search for what will produce good change. They have to either initiate change to try to produce growth or bring in younger people, or allow the status quo to persist in what they feel is an imbalanced way. There would presumably be some indication in the selection process of what the lay leaders had already concluded was needed.
If a congregation is dying, I imagine a good leader would allow the group to make its own decision whether to undergo the stress of change or allow things to continue toward closure. Here in the UK I believe the majority of congregations in my denomination are headed for closure in the next decade or thereabouts, so the decision making for these congregations is already approaching a critical point. I get the impression most are unable to handle changes at this late stage in their lives, so experimenting is largely out anyway. If you are in the US you may be in a very different situation.
There is a root dilemma here to do with leadership style and decision making processes, and the whole area of consensus versus hierarchical decision making?
Passion… for change, for relevance, for God and His kingdom..
Another way forward… the discipline of Appreciative Inquiry.
My guess would be that in nearly any congregation, except the most moribund and self-destructive, there will be positive memories of times when individuals or groups in the church have engaged in hands on missional activity. Help folks to remember those stories, surface them, tell them, get back in touch with what was great about them, and then ask each other about ways they might engage something like that (not identical of course!) now. Then develop the plan to do just that and see what happens.
Peace in Christ,
Just a question, with an established church isn’t there a way to change their actions sans actually changing thier building. Inside change, not outside et cetera.
So what would you do if you were a member of an established church with very little power to effect any change? It’s a real question for many of us who are powerless to make the changes but tied into our churches for a variety of genuine reasons.
Eddie,
Focus on the change you or others CAN empower. And keep in mind you don’t have to frame it publicly as change– you could frame it as doing ministry, or practicing discipleship, or as a mission experiment. Do that, do it well, and celebrate what you’ve learned in the process. If that happens, that may open the door for a little more– do that, and it may open the door for more, etc….
Peace in Christ,
In my present situation I’ve simply complied peacably with the way things are at my present congregation, where I have no responsibilities, and have focussed attention on planting/outreach/ in the neighbourhood aimed at a generation my regular congregation does not have. I’m not disturbing what already exists, and I am linking what I’m doing with the congregation as far as I can, but I’m working independently.
If the local church cannot or will not use us for for some reason, we should go out and pioneer. In that creative situation we are free to begin from scratch, helping by the grace of God to birth something maybe more appropriate to the context around us. And it can fall flat and quite probably will, but we will have been usefully occupied, and learning rather than getting alienated or frustrated! It is tiring beyond words, but people have been telling me for ages that one can often do more outside ordained ministry than in it, and I’ve taken some pursuading. But looking at my minister friends, so many of whom are locked in change-resistant situations, I honestly think I some ways I have more potential to work effectively than they do.
Getting paid, of course, is another matter! :0)
Eddie, I know how you can feel powerless…but this is because we, generally, forget the power found in prayer (someone mentioned the lack of focus on prayer earlier…).
If I could make a small suggestion, it would be to get a copy of the small book from the Chinese house churches called “Back to Jerusalem” You can go to http://www.backtojerusalem.com to see what they are about and order the book, if you can’t find it anywhere on a shelf.
I found myself praying and crying and repenting as I read this book. Certainly it would be a good exercise as one prepares for the Holy Spirit to do any work of revitalization.
Just a suggestion….
Be blessed.
this is a really good thread to keep talking through because as was previously noted… most people in the emerging/missional conversation are actually still in established church structures…
now i realise that sometimes it is easier to just think “lets blow it up and start again” i know that i have thought this… but is the problem that we don’t have the patience to have people who think missionaly to be raised up into positions of leadership where we are able to change?
I have moved from a para-church missional position to a hopelessly modern style church position with the intent to bring about that missional change within the church…
less talk more action will bring the conversation into a movement…
If people don’t want to change, Jesus Christ can’t make them, so what help do we mortals have!
I’d only go into a traditional church that wanted to change. Even then it would be hard, because people may say they want change, but when it comes down to it, change is really, really difficult.
Using people to make changes for our own benefits, as Simon suggested, is manipulative and not Christ-like.
(just dropping in while on a break from a mega-project that has to be finished in 3 weeks or less!)
a great initial response, Alan, and a nice contextual touch to appeal to these traditional westerners by using an alliterated outline!
anyway, two follow-up questions.
do ‘they’ want the change to take place in a few years …
… or in a few generations?
and how, if at all, would your responses shift if you were required to extend out your timeline?
Oh you get me there bro. I am not all that patient. the scenario said they were committed to moving tward missional stance. But I believe that if called to it, this could well be a ten year commitment. I am just not called to this at the moment. I am more of a church planter than a revitalizer at this stage. Nice try Brad!
How long would you take bro?
“I’m one who thinks its selfish to use an established gathering for any experiment. For good or not, a lot of people invest much into institutions, sometimes over generations. To come in and radically change the direction and substance of any gathering without overwhelming and informed support doesn’t reflect respect or love optimally for me.”
I resonate with what you’re saying here Simon, and agree with you… but I advised “experiments” not “an experiment”.
This is the area Alan Roxburgh tends to speak into… he says within an organisation you’ll tend to have 10% of people who are innovators… they may put their hands up to run a “missional experiment” alongside the “normal” church activities. It makes the “main body” a supporter of the missional experiment… they are not obliged to risk all by throwing themselves into the grand strategic plan.
What experiment? There would need to be much prayer, much listening to the Spirit, much biblical reflection, much discernment of the strengths of the church, and consideration of the felt needs of the local community. But it might be… mentoring in a local school, cleaning up a precinct, a meals ministry to down and outers, a group “hanging out” at a local “hang out” place to build relationships, starting up a youth activity in the community, starting up an outreach focused home group network… etc. etc. Doing something… but not stopping doing what the church is already doing.
And the leadership would of course preach a new imagination of church and the missional call of the Kingdom of God whenever they got a chance! And put into practice the priesthood of all believers wheneve a chance arises. And work with the church leadership (elders, deacons, whatever) in empowering and transformative ways… and confront blocks to mission there.
So the church culture gets changed over time not by revolution but by experiments alongside the core activities…
Of course… it’s easier to birth a baby than it is to resurrect the dead. But some are called to such a ministry IMO.
i don’t know if i’m a planter, revitalizer, or what. a ‘meta-sustaina-stratagist’?
but okay, so let’s assume i’ve got these resources where i live and am trying to move toward missional. (actually, i have been working for five years with the leadership of one church here to do just that.)
i live in what is reportedly the LEAST Christian place in the U.S., percentage-wise, and it has a long-standing reputation for not being ‘reachable’ by traditional means. so i’m working on a long-term strategy for here. among other things, this plan combines what i understand of analyzing paradigms and cultural systems, using strategic foresight skills to catalyze a more plausible and preferable future, and equipping people as everyday disciples in the Kingdom — whether they are indigenous or implants.
in my attempts to interpret the paradigm and cultural systems here, i find that the Kingdom and the culture in this region has been deeply harmed by the typical “slash and dash” approach, as i’ve termed it, where a church plant has to become self-supporting in two years or denominational funding is removed. (foolish, foolish, foolish …!) so there is an attempt to make a quick harvest, but that has repeatedly not worked here over numerous decades. i believe part of this is because there is not the kind of social network here to sustain a “church planting movement” — which only seems to work in certain kinds of societies (unless the Spirit is at work in ways that overrule the sociological structures).
thus, i am trying to comprehend what it would mean to catalyze a long-term process that focuses NOT on reaping, but slowing down the process (unless the Spirit leads otherwise) and focusing on plowing. sowing. watering. i expect there would be a harvest along the way. but, by focusing (literally) on the “ground work,” i wonder if that would not be a better investment, and lead to a sustainable situation of Kingdom growth.
i expect this transition to take a full century — and am planning for how this could be implemented in a transferable and sustainable way over seven generations. (in some of our Native American cultures, when the elders must make a strategic decision for the tribe, they talk through what the consequences of various options would mean for their children, their children’s children, and so on to the seventh generation. indigenous futurists, they were/are!)
because global culture is changing so rapidly and because we now can encounter almost any kind of worldview/paradigm in any locale, i believe it will be critical to equip every disciple in basic integrated skills of culture reading, contextualization of the gospel, social transformation, and creativity. none of these are taught as standard fare in any seminary or training program that i’m aware of. but then, i stopped reading most Christian stuff at the turn of the millennium … long story for another day.
give me a building and three staff people, and i think i’d figure out some very intriguing missional things to do … but still, the critical core of “the plan” requires that we shift our paradigm, and that will shift our methodologies. from a pragmatic, short-term focus to foresightful, long-term focus; from a programmatic approach to project-oriented approach. from segmented to holistic and coherent. this may all sound like the usual blah-dee-blah-dee-blah, but i suspect it isn’t, actually.
so, that’s the overview. come up our way once you get to the states, alan and debs, and i’d be glad to share details …
having attempted this I would say you also need a very specific spiritual gift, martyrdom!
heh-heh-heh. toooo true, toooo true! and transitional is not even my indigenous paradigm; it’s tribal. not that i’m out of my league, but i’m surely into a frustration zone.
say, james, wanna be one of my three “staff” members?!
Great thoughts Alan, I wish I had of read your post before I wasted alot of key strokes on my site.
http://thewearypilgrim.typepad.com/the_weary_pilgrim/2007/04/its_interesting.html
I know allot of folks that are in existing established church settings trying to work out the missional thing in their communities. My heart goes out to them getting communities to unpack baggage they’ve collected over the years, to repack and take only what is essential as they move into transition…to a more missional community.We begin to appreciate the frustrations of Moses in the wilderness. It is a whole different journey, doing it in the context of existing church structures, than outside or on the fringe of the church.
Nice try, Brad…but you don’t get to choose your three staff members or your building–they’re inherited
Transitional requires planned and staged change. I think you need to have two processes happening simultaneously:
(1) you need to be working at really changing (not just lip service) the paradigm at the leadership level (what a good time, that
) Those “in power” are rarely eager to “let go and let God” and embrace the suffering servant/disciple-maker model. The benevolent dictator (we will take the burden of leadership off your shoulders) seems so much more “efficient.” Delegating and equpping takes a lot more energy than “just doing it myself.”
and (2) you need to be working at really changing (not just lip service) the paradigm at the congregational level (even more fun
) The average church attender has totally bought into the clergy/laity separation…”the clergy are so much more spiritual, so much better prepared to minister…I wouldn’t know what to say or do…and I just don’t have the time.”
It’s like the “break the dish” paradigm, that I have been slowly changing in my husband and sons. The paradigm says that if I break enough dishes, they won’t ask me to cook or wash dishes or empty the dishwasher. At my house, that results in fewer dishes and a possible cut or two, but does not relieve responsibility for the task.
I remind my sons and husband that I do them no favors if I keep them dependent upon me for these traditionally “womanly tasks.” What if something happens to me…I’m sick or injured…the boys will grow up and leave home…what will they do?
And so the homes and kitchens of other women are much more glorious and they receive great praise from all around for their perfection….alas, I will never hear these words of praise. But when I am sick, my husband and children are able to bring me a great breakfast in bed, feed themselves, do a load of laundry, load up the dish washer…you know, encourage me to actually rest enough to get well!
This is why Alan’s #1 “P” is paradigms…if you don’t plant a brand new seed, you’ll keep growing the same old weed.
And, Janet, this is why it is easier to birth a baby than to revitalize a church. Birthing a baby only takes nine months, then 18 years of raising to a start at mature interdependence.
The great thing is this: whatever God calls you to do, he will enable you to accomplish–just trust God…and keep working on the next “P”
Brad if you are in Hawaii my bags are packed!
Friends - our leadership is just now reading “The Shaping” and starting the discussions of the future God might have for us as an 18 year old congregation that has been in the planning stages for building for 4 or more years. We just left some leased facilities in January and are meeting in a local school. Your prayers that we would discern God’s designs for us while adjustments in what gets built can still be made. I appreciate the comments that have been made and will encourage the leadership to take a look at them.
Andrew, this is great. We had better really get very serious.
It is an honor for us all to be taken sersiously.
Together with a very good friend, I think God is calling us to go out and start, experiment, something new. Something that approches the ideas that Wolfgang Simson is talking about (the Back to Jerusalem book has also been important for me–I recommend it strongly to anyone who haven’t read it).
People are not very happy to let us go (those we’ve been speaking to), most cannot understand why we cannot do that inside the old structure. But I know that it is not my job to change the old things… I guess I will be leaving the institutional type church in a month or so.
Have any of you some good advice how to leave the old without making too much trouble? Even if we are leaving to start something new, when they ask why we can’t do it in the old I have to tell them that I think there are things that is not compatible with what we have in mind (or in heart). Have any of you been in this situation?
P for Pancakes (or some other food on P)! Nothing breaks the formal meeting atmosphere as a good meal
“We believe God is calling us to make a leap of faith”
(This sounds so “spiritual” it’s hard to argue with… and in your case Epsen, true!)
james - sorry, not in hawaii, but boy, do i have a lot of baggage!
Espen, you are in the same situation my family is in…attempting to leave well. I think it is important to remember that God has called you to a new thing. I am hopeful that you have the blessing of the current leadership, asking them (and your friends) to pray for you as you respond in obedience to God, so that they know you are not leaving with “sour grapes” and taking folks with you…the spectre of “split”.
In our case, since we are doing something SO different from the IC, we can tell them with complete confidence and candor that we are not intending to take any significant resources from them. We have also been careful not to burn any bridges. If we want what we are doing to be an example of what is possible, then we need to be sure we’re not leaving in frustration and disgust, thumbing our noses as their paradigm and method for our superior method….this is, of course, all attitude-related posturing. A good attitude will go a long way toward winning support and good will.
Different may be better, but mostly it is the “different” part that sticks out. In this way, it is important to strive to keep the unity of the Body in the bonds of peace…remembering what you have in common, showing gratitude for what you have done and learned in their midst, down-playing the differences until they can be actually seen and experienced.
Many people cannot shift an invisible paradigm…but visionaries can. When God has brought to life the vision, then those with whom you have not severed ties will see what you are doing and will have an opportunity to join you in praise to God–for what you’ve done, for how you’ve done it, and that you’ve gone out from amongst them.
That’s my two cents….
And “P” is for pot roast, if you’re a meat and potatoes guy, or Pad Thai, if you’re adventurous and like peanuts…and if you’re not having a breakfast meeting….
Be blessed.
Brad you have some really good words there man - and Peggy - I like what you said about visionaries being able to shift things. You’re right. I did this accidently at a couple of places before Northwood - the church I pastor. Don’t change the church - change the people. Since I knew I couldn’t change it - I didn’t try - I just got to know the people and began to reach out in the community - as some of the people accepted Christ - that changed the church and it was from the new believers - not me - that saved me and the church. When we focus on the church, we focus on the institution - focus on the people and you focus on relationships. Think Asian - relationships are everything. This is why I’m not interested in too much ecclesiology - Alan’s mDNA is the only ecclesiology I want. If your discussion is “we gotta change” good luck. They’ll all say Amen but do Justme. There’s another way - for lack of a better word - do missional. Don’t talk it - just do it. Find the neediest people in your area and get your people to tackle it. Don’t talk worship - it’s a Sunday event for God’s sake - that doesn’t make missional at home - house, building, 3rd space, upperspace, whatever. The people they reach as a result will be different and without trying - they’ll change the church. The old “church” people will allow it because these are the people they reached and they will value these new believers. This will do so so so much more than conferences on revitalization. Those conferences generally start out - we’re doing bad - we’re loosing - somethings gotta happen - everyone leaves depressed with a new org chart, constitution and by - laws, and new set of songs to sing on Sunday! mission, Mission, MISSION - drives ecclesiology that leads to reformation and renewal - NOT structure! Everyone wants “relational” even old traditionalist. Everyone wants to make a difference - even old traditionalist. The problem is, they see no spiritual skin in the game. It’s a rare church - even a near dead one - that won’t feed, clothe, or serve someone hurting in their community - all you need is to get those people doing “mission.” Will there be headaches? Yep - but now you’re alive, and all living things have to fight viruses, infections, disease, cancers, and crapola of all sorts. Brad your’e so right about the slash and dash approach - would to God we would have shot Jarrel the Gospel Jackass 20 years ago. He never did reproduce - but man was it fun when he was there!
Hullo-o-o…
Let me throw a few thoughts into the melting pot… I do so having started a church seven years ago. I have only just begun to understand the power of the co-dependent link that the church which is modelled on Christendom has with the dominant culture. Even people with no prior significant experience of church, who have joined our community, are searching for a model that is based on something they recognise as “the church.” Shifting paradigms is not an exercise for the church in isolation, but for us to lead in the community at large… it is a task that is impossible… BUT GOD!
As I read some of the fantastic comments in this thread I want to scream… “image of God… explain to people they are created in the image of God.” THEN encourage them to begin to exercise their thinking in line with God’s - that’s the nature of repentance - to continually re-orient our thinking to line our thoughts up with God’s thoughts, to then speak what we hear God speak, to do what we see our Father do… MISSION. I know that it is a bit of a hobby horse that I come back to time and again as I contribute… but I strongly believe that it is a fundament root issue, of which Mission is a fruit - the only way that we can impact the quality of the fruit is to consider how we treat the root.
Bob - you asre right that we need to ensure that mission drives ecclesiology, but what drives mission?
brad’s long-term thinking flies in the face of our culture (both society and church), it is a reflection of the eternal God who can say to a people “I’m about to send you into seventy years of captivity as part of a plan to bring you health and well-being, not to cause harm to you…” or of whom the Psalmist would say ” a thousand years to us is like a day to You…” For our culture a week is a long time, people are waiting for a pay packet, a new product has been on the shelves, the neighbours have a new car… our eyes are so caught up in the material realm that we don’t recognise a restlessness that exists in us, because God has set eternity in the human heart… God is a God of generations and it will take a generational understanding for brad’s dream to be eventualised… so what is the root of the dream… what will keep it alive?
Peggy - I don’t think visionaries shift invisible paradigms as much as they are gifted with a capacity to “see” the paradigm that God’s working in, and choose to line their thinking and activity up with that - they agree with the shift that already exists in a spiritual realm and walk it into our temporal material reality. In effect they choose to walk in the image of God created in them and to lead others into it…
We DO missional things and find people are drawn to them and actually find pleasure in those things - precisely because it is part of their make-up, their spiritual DNA… I’ve discovered that unless we help people to grasp WHY it feels good and WHY they are drawn to this activity then the pressure of our consumer culture towards selfishness, takes the edge of the pleasure of freely giving. I hear the “why do I do this when nobody does anything for me” factor arise in people’s thinking and the commitment to mission depreciates over time!
God’s name is “I am” and every time we consider ourselves, the thought that frames our meditation is “I am…” We are relections of the image of the great “I am” reNEWed as we are caught up INTO Christ and into His relationship in the Godhead. So we walk IN His mission, we love IN His love, we live His life… we need to know who we are to understand whay we do and why we do what we do…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Yes, CS, you have caught the essence of what I meant…not that anyone can cause a paradigm to shift, but that some can “see” the reality of the situation and others can’t. And seeing it, some are able to recognize what the Holy Spirit is wanting to do, and can join in.
Last fall I heard a speaker explain God’s “I AM” as “The God who makes things happen”. I really like that…our God, whose image we bear, is one who makes things happen. He is not confused, he is not thwarted, he is not impatient, he is not bound up by our timeframes or resources or paradigms.
This brings me great peace and hope–that God has both the will and the vision and the power to make things happen…and he is courageous and nurturing enough to let us join him–even if we break a dish or two here and there!
Blessings,
Can’t argue with you - I agree - I live by why questions and despise 3 simple ways to . . . . I am a sailor, explorer - not an engineer and I drive engineers crazy because I don’t like processes. Remember when you rode a bike? It took some time, and you had to do it before you got the swing of it. That’s all I’m trying to do - I’m Celtic as well - so let me put it this way. I’m trying to show them how to dig potatoes by getting their hands in the dirt. What preceeds ecclesiology? That’s easy - Christology. I do what I do because I love Jesus. Image of God - you’re right - that’s the whole Jesus question. The “I AM” thing.
Question - why do we focus just on our generation - shouldn’t we be a generation out in front of our own? Isn’t that a recipe for death?
The Gospel must be cross-cultural and cross-generational. Especially in postmodern culture - we should be able to get away with that unlike any previous generation!
And you’re right - Brad 100 years is too long - you’re going to be dead by then. Pick it up man. You gonna stand before God before you finish! Then whatcha gonna say? Just kidding you - do what God tells you to man.
Love your thinking Peggy…
I’ve opften considered that dropping a hyphen into the great co-mission is helpful, since we are co-opted to be co-labourers with God in His mission…
Slainte
A Celtic Son
Some more P’s:
Profile.
Take the three staff members and find their profiles. MBTI, learning style, Enneagram, generational analysis (boomer, silent, …) as well as gifting and passions. Map them on a number of maps - see how they connect with each other. And see where their spouses and closest friends fit on these maps.
Survey the neighborhood - 1, 2 3 mile rings. See how many connect or potentially relate to the staff members. Pray walk the neighborhood - do this often and at varying times. See who the spirit sends you. You want to aim at a theoretical “target”, but your aim will “hit” a real target, that’s who you will reach.
Process:
Come up with a method for reaching these people. Fix what’s broken - do you have enough parking? Child care? Does a staff member need to get a tattoo removed? Does a spouse need to finish a degree?
Take advantage of the three dozen people who cared enough to comment here. Invite them, they’ll come visit (I’m heading east in a couple of months, a side trip would be easy). And they’ll see things others would miss.
I would also get the team explore how they handle conflict !
Wow, I reckon this team could solve the problems of many churches and denominations. Or should I call this “the panel”. Brilliant insights.
CS, you know one of the best interepretation os the name of God YHWH is Martin Buber’s. He sais it is best interpreted as “Will be be as I will be” rather than the more static I Am. and what he means by this is that we will experience him when and where he chooses and in whatever form he chooses to reveal himself to us. He surprises us with his revelation. So we remain expectant at what he will be when he is. If that makes sense.
Alan a good friend of my Drew Hage, who will be joining our team here in Edinburgh next year, will be at the church planting conference you are speaking at in Florida (gee life’s tough) hope you get a chance to connect.
James, tell him to come say hellooo. I love Scottish accents!
Re that conference. I am talking to all the ‘heavies’ in the evangelical world. It feels a little like playing Fiddler on the Roof at the Nurenburg trials!!
Hi Alan,
solving the problems requires taking the medicine we prescribe, engaging in the necessary therapy and actively engaging rehabilitation!
I am not familiar with Buber’s writings - briefly came across a couple of quotes and concepts from his work years ago, in relation to concepts of Christianity and existentialism… Your comment though prompts me that use of the term “I am” does convey a finite, temporal nature that is clearly inadequate - thanks for that. In developing the concept I’d be more inclined to revisit some Trinitarian theological groundwork… to include a future aspect, a relational basis and a plural context… a sort of “we are becoming who I am will be…” I will give it some thought and revisit Barth, Grenz et al on that issue too.
If you’re looking for some support in Florida and have a spare plane ticket I’m sure I can squeeze some time off… other than that I’ll have to be content with Wollongong next week!
Slainte
A Celtic Son
whoa! alan! whatta opportunity you have to offer a “starfishy” learning scenario in reverse to the transitional one you received:
how about asking the ‘heavies’ what they would do to create decentralized network of missional Kingdom enterprises if they were given a membership-plateaued or declining non-profit organization, three catalytic AP networked paradigm types and a heavily post-Christendom cultural setting, say … bohemian mix plus a strong strain of cyberpunk, a combo of bright green eco-spirituals plus dark green deep ecologists, plus a Sufi study center nearby the non-profit’s building?
cheers to all!
ummm … CS … being as I am in California, I’m closer and don’t you think it is more reasonable for Alan to offer his extra ticket to me instead?
but then, although I would like the world to be just, I try not to expect all things to go my way. however, i would like to go alan’s way!
oops. i hit the ’send’ before my brain was done, i did.
in the scenario, AP (apostolic, prophetic).
and perhaps as an add-on, how about at least one third of all the missional enterprises must be designed to have impact for at least 100 years.
and of course, the scenario is set in Austin. or, more likely, San Francisco. ummm…maybe an enclave in Sonoma? or …
Brad,
if the meeting format you’ve just suggested was to go ahead it would be a real temptation to beg, (steal?) or borrow a ticket just to see the look on some people’s faces!!
It is more reasonable for Alan to offer his spare ticket to you, but as the great George Bernard Shaw suggested:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
… and I’m sure Alan’s interested in progress, so it’s preferable to make the unreasonable decision
Beannachd Dia dhuit
A Celtic Son
WHAT MUST I DO TO PROVE I AM MORE UNREASONABLE THAN YOU?, he screamed. abandoned and confused. while drifting into a pointalistic and surrealistic dream …
ummm. does that work? did i win? i want to see people’s faces as they consider contextualization in my tribes! not to be mean, but just as a ‘witness’ to the realities of ALL situations of transformation.
shawly, there is a Pygmalional recipe somewhere in this mix …
Clearly the desperation that invents adverbs from Shaw and Pygmalion is unreasonable
Clearly the desperation that wants to see people’s faces as they consider contextualization in your tribes is unreasonable
The screaming, abandoned and confused, while drifting into a pointalistic and surrealistic dream … simply qualifies you for a staff role in the evangelical heavies churches… so you’d better go!!
Slainte
A Celtic Son
so. are you saying i should become a viral paradigm staff infection?
yay!
okay, alan. waiting for you to weigh in on this and resolve who it is you shall grant the extra ticket to. you’ve ‘heard’ the candidates. you know their sporadics and paradigmatics.
“and the ticket goes to …”
oh - but wait - the conference is already sold out…
bummer, doood.
Last night I send another post but it didn’t post I think I hit my button the same time Peggy did - anyhow - Peggy - you’re insights are right on - practically they work I’ve seen it many times. Brad - your timeline is too long - you’ll be standing before God, people burnin in hell, before the task is finished. But I’m proud of you for making a long-term commitment - most people fail to realize that movements are the result of years of seed planting. We just like to be there when the crops are harvested - that isn’t always possible. Look at Abraham, David, all longed for another city. How bout Hudson Taylor, Henry Morrison, and I could go on. Celtic Son (I too am Celtic from Wales but made my way to Texas through the Alamo) - as a music lovin mountain climbin Welchman - what preceeds missiology - that’s easy - you answered it - God - or as we would say in this conversation Christology. Whereas I have to spend hurculean effort to change a church, institution, I change more by obeying the Word of Jesus in my own life, living it out in a transformational attractive way than anything else. As I lead people to faith in Jesus and mentor others beside me doing that - and other behaviors like discipling, or starting churches, or engaging nations, or serving the poor - the connection is on “being” Jesus in that situation - that’s where the transformation happens. Changing hearts is a lot easier than changing instutitons. But if institutions are changed it won’t be because heads are changed - but hearts. So, how do you change a heart? How did Jesus change hearts? He taught AND healed, AND fed, and gives us the last part of Matthew 25
. No, I get pegged all the time for being a social gospel guy - I’m not - I’m a comprehensive Kingdom consilient guy.
Brad, can’t pay your plane ticket or pay your hotel - but if you really want to go to that conference let me know and how to contact you and I’ll see what I can do. Be forewarned - these guys are talking and moving missional but many would be lost in this conversation on this blog. They’re good guys who are doing their best to obey God with what he has placed in their hands. You would learn a lot but you would also disagree with some things.
hey bob, in one way, that’s a very reasonable comment on the timeline being too long. but there is a legitimate question here of what is unsustainable harvesting that also damages the potential for the future (you’d need to know the history of churchy stuff in this county), versus sustainable investment for the future. in some ways, this is three-mile island and there is a LOT of toxic waste to have to clean up before this place will grow crops again like it was meant to …
and it’s cool of you to offer to connect re: the conference. unfortunately, am in the midst of editing a book about turnaround churches (traditional or transitional going to missional) and it’s due by the end of the month–yikes!
and even if i sound contemptuous at times about people who don’t seem to ‘get it’ about this edge of culture, i don’t doubt their sincerity or that they really want to see Kingdom expansion for right and righteous reasons. it’s difficult when other people attempt to impose exuberant methodologies in places where they don’t fit, and i get it that my paradigms and methodologies don’t fit in the world of the traditional or transition, but boy, howdy! (as my Texan writing mentor would’ve said) do i fit in tribal!
thanks man. hey, maybe we can connect next time i’m out your way …
Alan Drew is from Detroit, but I’ll ask him to do a Scottish accent if you want
Ok, boys…Brad, CS started with an “if Alan had”, which we’re pretty sure is more of a pipe dream…THERE IS NO TICKET!!!
Secondly, when are you two going to snap out of the either/or mentality!!! I say you BOTH should go…one on Alan left and the other on his right (don’t anyone think about James and John here…and I’m not any of these boys’ mother
)
But I do love the reverse scenario, Brad…Alan, that might be very interesting!!!
Alan, thanks for the Buber take on I AM…I will really try to get around to him one of these days. But I especially love the point of living with expectancy…not expectations, mind you, but with expectancy–that God can and will be whatever he chooses to be when he chooses to be it! This is the essence of eucatastrophe…
Bob, isn’t is great to have all this swirl of thought? I, of course, being the most unreasonable of the lot, see the value of each contribution…but don’t buy any one of them hook, line and sinker…back to the NO FORMULA! We much each of sort through the stuff and let the Holy Spirit light up what God wants to be in that situation
I have frequently used the image of infrared targeting systems…where someone on the ground lights up the target and the jets release their bombs only when they are lit up…we could do with some better restraint when we’re dropping missional bombs…don’t want any collateral damage!
But at the same time, bombing isn’t the only strategy…lots of infrastructure to analyze and rebuild or replace…
Lots of wounded and displaced to care for…
Lots of wisdom concerning long-term implications of today’s actions.
But God is the Commander-in-Chief in this Kingdom. We had better be paying attention for whenever it is that he shows up on deck
Blessings!
methinks peggy should go to the conference, bob and alan and celtic son. after all, nancy beech does need some company there … henceforth and forthwith i give up my claim to the imaginary ticket.
*chuckles* are we asking what we would do with an established church here, or with a bunch of established denominations? (Are they asking us? lol )
Be kind to them, Brad…don’t send them their worst nightmare
Who is Nancy Beech?
Brad where abouts in Cali?
yo! Peggy! Nancy is from Willow Creek Community Church - an amazing and gifted sister, who has done a lot of work with the arts ministries there and has moved into other areas as well.
james, Marin County, just north of San Francisco.
and to all, anyone’s *worst* nightmare might be accomplished by me with about 10 bittersweet chocolate covered espresso beans. or 12, a better biblical number, eh?
heh-heh. so alan, are yuh gonna do it? are yuh gonna give ‘em the try-the-tribalist scenario? if not, okay, i still think you’re cool…
Well, I have attended a Prevailing Church conference at Willow…back in 2000…alas, I do not know our sister Nancy. But I will pray for her, keeping company in the Spirit!
Thanks Peggy and Janet for good advice, I’ll think of that when we will go speak to the pastor…
I have just logged on to find this wild and crazy plane ticket motif winding its way through the blog. Methinks “the panel” has lost it. Ahh, but what a way to go. Thanks eveytone for the fun time.
Peggy’s living this… I’m just talking off the top of my head Espen!
But her advice makes so much sense to me… “God is calling me to this leap of faith and I would value your prayer support so much… I love and value the people here and will miss them… I sense God’s “NO” to staying, He is calling me out” - none of these statements imply criticism of the people or of the church… criticism that might wound and burn bridges.
I will pray for you!
Alan…when the cat’s away, the mice….
Espen (and Andrew), I will be in prayer for you as you move forward…that you will embrace the way of expectancy. You will not be disappointed in YHWH–who will be who he will be. Mostly he will be your faithful covenant partner–is often surprising ways!
Be blessed, all.
Alan said: We need to recover our most basic, and dangerous, forms of church—that of an apostolic movement. It’s the story of the church and her mission that I outline in The Forgotten Ways. I would tell and retell of that story and then lets see what happens!
Bob - The planter: As a turn around pastor with success in turning four churches ( with God) I am less than optimistic.
Now that I know what I know, I would never accept another call to attempt a turnaround. We need far too many homesteaders to die in the church than we have the time. I fear, By the time they die the church will be too far gone.
However for those brave at heart and serious about it, I would offer free disciple making movement training and then coach them through the deal. I’ll make that commitment to anyone right here and now! Just email me!
Your picture of the church made me sick because the church is a building and the Church is made up of people. I am not interested in protecting the church! I want to be part of a movement that leads to exponential disciple making where instead of a building with freshly moved grass and a steeple we can finally see the people being the Church as Jesus taught us to be.
My two cents… Don’t go for the building until you can get the disciples making disciples thing right and help those disciples see that they must BE the Church daily instead of just doing church weekly!
I’m praying for a person of peace whom I can disciple who is the one who can multiply disciples quickly. As I pray, pray with me and I’ll show you how faithful God is to drop leaders at our doorstep who want missional DNA churches more than anything else.
Jesus began a disciple making movement we must continue. It is a movement that spends 95% + of our time on the outside and less and less on the inside.
Gather together and do your thing, but please don’t “go to gather” but instead, “Gather to go!
To Eleanor:
You asked whether established denominations are asking you what you’d do.
I’m the liturgy specialist for an established denomination– (United Methodist Church) and I’m asking… all the while also looking for ways that I personally and we as an institution (General Board of Discipleship and possibly other general agencies of the denomination) can support (and not distract or get in the way of!) the emerging missional movement within the denomination.
Hey brad-
I live in Ukiah.
I hear you about wondering if it will take 100 years…
And I hear Alan, hoping it will take less than 20. Since I am 51, this is my preference
Dana Ames
dana. me too. that adds up to 102.
are we there yet?
p.s. alan’s getting closer …
Hi Taylor!
That’s amazing, how encouraging. I think I have to say my experience of the Salvation Army has been that they want to encourage as well, even if it’s not always an easy process.
I’m reading ‘Forgotten Ways’ this weekend, and noticing that Alan says in Part 1 somewhere that emerging missional churches that are derived from a denomination can in turn spread renewal and growth back into that denomination as they demonstrate being missional in a simple and dynamic way. I think I’ve actually seen that happening in the Salvation Army, not to a huge extent, but definitely signs of it in places. It is difficult though for many people to imagine the future of the church in the West, so not always easy.
Alan - it’s a great book, and I’ve not wanted to put it down. I’m also Jewish and felt I was reading something written by someone who spent time in yeshiva. :0) It’s terrific and full of hope, which is just what everyone needs at the moment.
Eleanor, thanks for the feedback. I never went to yeshiva, but I have spent a lot of time studying Judaism. I love Hebraic thinking. One day I will write on that. It will be a joy to re-Hebraise Christianity.
Great Post and comments. Alan, I think you are right when you say that this would be a ten years commitment (at the very least) - I wonder how many of the original people would still be there at the end. Would the people you ended up with have gotten there quicker if you just moved out and did a new thing. This is the conclusion I’m coming to.
After 10 years of “ministry” I perceive that the church is its own frame of reference - everyone is so busy making adjustments to wood and tools that the ocean doesn’t get a look in. Just stopping some stuff might give the space to smell the ocean breeze, but everyone seems to get shifty at the first hint of a slow down. The wood and tools are all we know and they seem to be of such eternal significance that to put them down is, well …
The institution is reformable, but its people we need to deal with. Jesus, well ultimately he did reform Israel, just not in the eyes of most of the nation. He called out ‘follow me” and those who wanted to became the transition with Him. The rest He left to face the consequences of their ways.
I feel a lot of leaders would come out, and follow a new way, but their livelihoods are found in ‘ministry’ and so they continue to ‘reform’ internally, often dancing with depression since they don’t really believe that reform is possible.
I hear you Jon - but I am finding that in the American IC a significant portion of the crowd still need Christ - if Barna is correct in his observations that half of American Pastors actually have a Biblical Worldview and only 9% of the “born again” folks and the IC is still a third place gathering for many - seems like it could be a place to be a faithful witness to quite a few folks - but the extremely valid question Alan raises applies here - will merely tweeking our tried pattern make an impact?
Yet, I constantly ask myself, what responsibility does a faithful witness of God have in making an impact? What if we are in an age of defiance like Nahum’s Ninevah or Isaiah’s Israel or Jeremiah’s Juday?
Why would we want to change the IC anyway…it seems to be like this would be dabbling in genetic engineering, and thats surely not gonna work, let me explain what I mean…
The Institutional Church and the Kingdom of Heaven are two different species or organisms, one is man centred and has salvation of souls as its calling, where the other is God centred and has peace, joy and righteousness as its calling (sorry was that a bit strong?)
One is trying to save sinners to add to its organisation, the other is giving God to a broken world regardless of how it is received.
I say let the IC continue to be what it is and let the Kingdom work unnoticed for the main part in the gutters and byways of life.
Jesus came, saw, spoke, died, rose, ascended and yet 2000 years later Judaism continues, as well as a sort of 1st temple style christianity. He never changed the worship system, he just revealed a better way.
Do we have a right to change whjat people have enjoyed for decades? I think not.
I know a group of 60-80 year olds who enjoy singing unaccompanied psalms and wearing hats, I love their unique way…is it following Jesus? I just don’t know for sure, but whats best? To let them continue till they all die, they were emergent once. Or should I get them to walk a labyrinth whilst listening to metrical psalms on their ipod’s.
I say let them have their IC and let those who want to follow Jesus teaching in a ‘radical and living way’ just do it…but let the latter have only love and compassion for the former, and not think itself superior, it is only God who gives the increase.
Did that have anything to do with the post at all? oh well thats the freedom of unmoderated blogs, everyone gets to say what they want in blogistan.
Peace
Dave
Alan, I am already looking forward to that book
That is one of the things I long for, to understand Jesus and His message in the same way as the first followers did.
Two questions:
I understand that many things today in protestant churches are inherited from the Roman Catholic church, and that they again had included pagan elements and greek philosophy. But I’ve noticed that a synagogue building is not very different from a church building (at the inside), and the rabbi seems to me to be almost the equivalent of the traditional churchs pastor? If that is true one could say that the church is operating after a jewish pattern, and that maybe the early church did it a bit like that? To me it seems like they are just as building focused as christians (but I might be really wrong here
). Could you explain a bit? This is an argument I have already heard to defend the traditional way lutherans worship.
The other question is if the jewish understanding of who the Messiah is, and especially of the expressions Jesus used to describe himself (Son of Man, Son of God etc) if that could help in understanding the trinity?
I ask because I see that some people think that the divinity of Jesus was an invention of the RC church (Neal Morse for those who know him). I also have jewish and muslim friends, so a good understanding of that can always be helpful. Maybe the easiest way to answer is if you know a good book on the subject
Hi, sorry am butting in. Alan has studied more than I have, so take his answer as more authoritative. I’ve lived in orthodoxy for a couple of decades, and am now messianic.
A minyan can and does meet anywhere convenient including in a car park (ie for weddings), cafe and office buildings. In the city where I worked and in Israel I gather the men only like a roof over their heads to avoid the rain or sun. In suburbs there may well be large buildings but they come with large subscriptions, and therefore people tend to move out into smaller and less formal groups. Increasingly in AngloJewry at least the preference is for communities to meet in small groups in private houses (shtibls). I wish I could say this is because of the cosy feel, but it is also because the it means the minyan can cluster round their preferred teacher and move a little up the frum (religious/respectable) ladder. I lived next door to one for some years and it was great to open your window in the morning and hear morning prayers! The synagogues as I experienced them have little or no place for women - many women never attend as they/we have no religious obligation to do so. What happened two thousand years ago I have no idea, but the halacha is clear - only men have an obligation to pray together.
Synagogues as I saw them, typically chareidi, were study houses. The one I attended was called the Beis Midrash Beis Yisrael. It was primarily a study house for the men to sit and learn, and occasionally the women attended a lecture there, ie Shabbos afternoons. There was also an aron, a cupboard for the Torah Scrolls and a ner tamid, light, but otherwise it was like any study hall/classroom/small yeshiva.
Rabbis are absolutely not pastors in any sense in the strictly orthodox world. They are teachers of Torah and authorised to pasken shaialahs, to answer questions of religious law in the field in which they had specialised. That’s it. No pastoral training, no pastoral responsibilities. It is different in Reform nowadays and possibly in the more liberal end of orthodox, but no rabbi I came across felt his duties encompassed pastoral care, though obviously lovingkindness, sensitivity and compassion are mitzvas. The concept of leadership was to inspire adherence to religious law and to resist assimilation. No forward sense involved other than that, though rabbis on the chareidi fringe would get involved in kiruv, mission to non-religious Jews. Typically Lubavitch or from a modern background, they would run beginners classes for those becoming observant.
The questions on Messiah Alan is better qualified to answer, and there are PhD theses on this in abundance I believe! :0)
Blessings
E.
Eleanor has given a better answer than I could here. And claims to messiah are always doomed to be problematic in the least. Don’t be looking in my direction.
Ok, thanks Eleanor. Maybe I should go have a look at a synagogue one day to see how it works (if that is allowed).
Wolfgang Simpson who spoke at the recent Forge Conference alleged the Jewish synagogue liturgy involved a:
Call to worship
Singing
Reading scripture
Preaching a sermon explaining the text
Blessings and farewell.
His claim was that when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the empire their was a marriage of Jewish patterned liturgy and worship within the pagan temples (converted to Christian basillicas) which was baptised with Christian belief.
This pattern of worship in dedicated church buildings became the norm, replacing the rather more organic sharing together and eating together in homes and practicing acts of goodness that characterised “underground” Christianity.
Janet, this is really interesting, where does Simpson make his claim from, by that I mean what evidence? It would certainly be consistent with 21st Century church.
Thanks
Dave
Yes, that is interesting. BTW I found some good articles to my question about the trinity at the Jews for Jesus website.
Espen, you could also investigate NT Wright’s “big books”, the three in his still-being-written “Christian origins” series. Or if you’re not up to all those 2000 or so pages
you could go for “The Challenge of Jesus”, which discusses a lot of the Jewish expectations in Jesus’ day and how Jesus related to them.
2000 pages dont discourage me, I am still young
Thank you Dana, that might be just what I am looking for.
Though maybe it would be a good idea to start with “The Challenge”…
Dave… I do not know.
Peggy and Janet,
my friend and I have just been speaking with the pastor about our calling. He had his first day yesterday so we didn’t know much what to expect. But after speaking and praying together, it seems that he really shares our vision of church and we had a really blessed time toghether this morning. It went better than we hoped
Thanks for your prayers, they worked!
Espen, God is so good! We praise him that our prayers have joined with his purposes in your situation and brought about this blessing! We’ll stay tuned for the next report
Wow… God may be bringing you together for a purpose. Walking in the Spirit is a great adventure!
I will continue to pray… do keep us posted!
Thats really nice of you, thanks a lot. The first challenge for me is my exams the 2nd and 7th of May. I have to succed them to be able to stay here in Paris, if not I do not know where I’ll be next (academic) year :/ And it is not just to pass, I have to have an average of around 15.5 where 20 is best… it is possible but very hard.
Well, Espen, the secret to exams (and just about everything else) is to work as if everything depends on you and to pray as if everything depends on God! I cannot do any of the work for you, but I can certainly add my prayers to yours that God will be glorified in all that you set your hand to.
Be blessed.
the 100th comment! I had to do it. do I get a prize?
I’ll do my best, and I’ll keep you posted (in this thread). Thank you for your prayers.
Alan, I don’t know, but I think I heard some talk about a ticket. Anyways it’s your blog so I guess it is you who should be offering the prize…
OK. Here’s a further question:
I work with an organisation that produces training courses and home group courses. (www.facingthechallenge.org). Most of our users are probably in fairly institutional churches. We’re thinking about developing a course that will help people in this setting *begin* to think missionally. (There’s simply no point in being too radical about it - all it will do is scare and alienate). So if you were planning a course like this, and you could make 6-8 simple but practical suggestions that would encourage people to think and act missionally, what would they be? This needs to be for ordinary church members, not for church leaders.
OK Dave, I will start off….
Begin to hang out regularly at some third place. Get to know the locals and become part of the tribe.
Alan, is that like Friendship evangelism? Is this what thinking missionally is - the old friendship evangelism?
I think I would want the course to begin to see people as made by God, and not as potential converts…in essence love people period.
To me it’s not a strategy - It’s not hang out with Julie next door at the tennis courts and see if I can get her to come to the church barbeque/cell group. It’s a complete reorientation, a mental shift, a sense of ‘I belong out there with that crowd.’ To me it is that that navigates us from potentially phony agenda’d friendships to unconditional lovingkindness.
Dave, I said it’s a start–not the whole shebang. One of the things we have to encourage people to do get out of our comfort zone and learn the lost arts of incarnation. that’s what loving people is all about.
Alan, how do we begin to learn to do what the world does naturally ie: incarnation, how did we get to the place as people where we lost touch with the world around us?
Do you think that when people become christians they go through a reprogramming? Is this then what missional life is about - becoming de-programmed
Sometimes (I know this is off topic - but hey we can go off topic) I think that we as christians have been the ones who may have exchanged truth for a lie. God wakes us up, Jesus appears full of grace, and we sign up for church
How do you de-program something?
Grace
Dave
Sometimes I think we are so trapped in the “it’s all about me” milieu of our culture that even our beginning attempts to be “missional” are subtly (and unconsciously)critiqued using this grid. I think I find that true of myself anyway.
” how did we get to the place as people where we lost touch with the world around us?”
Is it because we stopped seeing God in it, God working in it, suffering in it? The world became bad, the enemy, that which is to be given up by true Christians. If I can’t see Christ in Harry, drunk on the beach this morning surrounded by beer cans, his face having taken a few punches last night, then I’ve stopped thinking God is out there in messy humanity, and instead can only be found in the convent or the church building?
Hey Espen, what are you studying?
I’ll give some study tips if I may… from someone who was a terribly disorganised student, and then, in a major act of hypocrisy, became a teacher.
The difference between students who perform well and those who don’t usually comes down to good habits. It’s an incredibly boring secret. I wish there was a more glamorous one.
To pick a random figure…
If the average student does 2 hours of study, 6 days a week, the above average student does 3 hours of study, 6 days a week. Over a semester they have clocked up over 100 hours of engaging with their study material more than the average student… it’s a significant difference that a last minute swot can’t make up.
The discipline doesn’t have to be in one block… they might be on a train for 1/2 an hour day and night… and while the average student might look out the window and listen to music, the above average student will look over their lecture notes, write summaries, draw flow charts, draw pictures or diagrams to help them remember facts, develop acrostics to help them remember facts, read and summarise the relevant section of their text book etc. All this time adds up.
As implied too… it’s not just extra time (which is the main thing) but it’s time well spent in ACTIVE learning… discussing things with fellow students, trying sample exam questions, writing up summaries, etc.
Then there’s the attitude stuff… “I can’t do this” is a block. “If I try my hardest and fail then I’LL be a failure, so I won’t try too hard” (that is a really common, but unvoiced fear, behind a huge amount of university drop out.) Prayer and trust makes a difference… “Lord, if you’ve called me to this, you’ll help me to do it.”
Some courses are so overloaded with assignments it’s hard to exam study at all… which is another obstacle (and not the fault of the student).
Hey Janet,
thanks for your tips. I am in the first year of medicine, we are 2600 students and only the 400 best will be able to continue in the second year. After the first semester I was classed 700, so I need to gain 300 places. As I said, it is possible even though it is difficult. My biggest obstacle was, until about february, the attitude, when discouraged it is difficult to do my best. And the whole competition system was also very hard to get used to (I am not french).
But I had one experience where I managed to work well and continue even though I was discouraged (with the help of God), and after that I haven’t been discouraged at all. Now I have the peace in my heart that God is in control and my job is to do my best. As you say trust really makes a difference.
I don’t know how much the average student works (but then the average student is not even close), but my friends try to work 10 hours 7 days per week. But I am not sure if it’s healthy so I try to find the good balance.
10 hours 7 days a week!!!!!!! Gosh… I don’t know how you’d avoid burnout (ignore all my comments stated with high school students in mind!)
That’s certainly about working smarter not harder… and trusting God.
Dave… I’ve been mulling over your question… I do wonder whether one should start with working on the theological questions rather than “6-8 simple but practical suggestions”. I do think we become more like the one we focus out love and attention upon. So is our image of God a missional God… a relational God… one who so loved the world He gave… a perfect Father… a Christ-like God, the friend of tax collectors and sinners?
Or does our God maintain institutions… is our God a judge, a harsh task master, a legalist?
I wonder if a series on “The missional God” might be a way to start?
I also think learning to listen to the Holy Spirit (and then doing as you’re told) isn’t a bad place to start… although some churches find that concept a bit spooky!
If you really are constrained by “practical suggestions” there’s plenty in of these in the gospels… go to parties like Jesus did, eat with people, give to someone without expecting anything back, “go the extra mile”, practice hospitality… etc. etc.
Thanks for these suggestions. Janet - I’m sure you’re right about starting with the incarnational God. However, I do believe the practical suggestions are also important: mostly, the people around us (me, at least) in institutional church are sincere in their commitment to Christ, and in their desire to follow him — they just can’t see how you can ‘do church’ differently. So I would like to put some specific ideas in front of them.
One of the ways I’ve been trying to home in on this recently is by asking ‘What do you think the church will look like in ten years’ time? What should it look like? What would we need to do differently now to get there?’ It’s really to answer this last question that I want to be able to suggest possible ways forward.
Blessings
I have a practical question rather than a point and that is what do we know about the financial implications of an established church turning around into a missional/incarnational etc stance?
Is it an inevitable drain on the church financially? Can the newer forms of - what would be effectively small plants in their own right - pay their own way, never mind pay into the older congregation?
I gather from speaking to the Church Army here in the UK it is the case that some, for example cafe churches, have not only broken even but paid back into supporting the mother church, but these are unusual.
This would be a critical area here, as we have in UK and in rural areas specially such a high proportion of congregations in our denom. dipping below financial viability and with small and aging congregations.
Blessings
Hey, Alan and all!
Scot McKnight is blogging about this subject over at: http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=2274
I gave him a heads-up about this thread, so I thought I should give you a heads-up about his!
Be blessed,
Hey Bro, I feel sorry for the church that would have you as a pastor! Just kidding! I would go to your church bro, and that is saying a lot cause I couldn’t go to to many churches.
There needs to be an intentional detox to get a church turned around and missional again. Aside from the missional paradigmns the people of God typically have a dependency issue where they are unable to hear from God without a teacher and they also tend to only feel used by God when they are doing stuff. Hearing God’s voice and intimacy with Him is absolutely essential.
Just a thot.
I’ve had my first two exams today and I think it went very well, thank you for your prayers Janet and Peggy! Three more to go monday…
Blessings to you, Espen! Thank you for keeping in touch. May these days leading up to three exams on Monday be full of rest, good food, healthy study/review and peace that God will be there for you each step of the way.
I will continue to keep you in my prayers.
Amen!